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1/02/2018 8:06 PM  #1


Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

How many of you engineer types, and amateur engineers use anti-seize for aluminum head fasteners? Does it affect the torque values?

I applied it to my intake to head stainless bolts and can't seem to keep them tight. Does anybody have a cure to my woes? I google searched for an hour and found conflicting info.

This is on my 351W, AFR heads, Weiand Stealth intake, ARP stainless bolts.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

1/02/2018 11:52 PM  #2


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

Hey Bob, how about an “amateur type” person. I use never seize or anti seize on anything going into aluminumnumnum. Especially if I want to take it apart later. And it should affect torque values.

The anti-seize acts like as a lube when torquing. Bolts torqued with lube will have a higher clamping force than the same setup without lube. From dealing with piping bolts on the pipeline, bolt material plays a part in the final torque value also. A higher clamping force and the bolts still backing out really doesn’t help you much, does it?

I am not a fan of stainless bolts. They look nice but can gaul easy, especially with a stainless nut. Have you tried different bolts? Like your garden variety grade 5 from the hardware store? Not t near as pretty, but the roughness of the machining may be just enough to keep them from backing out.

Are the current bolts equipped with lock washers?

What’s the chance the intake gasket is getting squeezed out? Just some food for thought!!


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

1/03/2018 4:58 AM  #3


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

It will definitely change the torque value, though by how much I an't say.  Most factory fasteners torque values are stated using 30 weight oil on the threads. 

I would go to studs and nuts if you're having an issue.  You can use Nylock nuts if the issue persists. 

 

1/03/2018 11:14 AM  #4


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

I've never used antiseize on aluminum stuff, but I have put a dab of ARP thread seal on them. It adds just a bit of lubricity and resists the bolt backing out.. That stuff is kind of like that non hardening sealer. Also, I made sure all the threaded holes in my aluminum heads had heli-coils in them. Most did from the factory, but I added them to the ones that didn't. Of course I am used to racing applications that come apart a lot and it helps keep the heads alive a lot longer.

 

1/03/2018 3:58 PM  #5


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

I wouldn't use anti seize on intake bolts, light engine oil or thread sealer depending on engine and where the bolts thread into. When I would install intakes I would torque them in sequence in incrementing torque values until you reached the final value you want. For example if the final torque is 45 ft/lbs, I would do one round at 15/20 then 35 then 45 and recheck them all atleast twice more at 45. By the time you get through a whole sequence the ones you started on will be loose due to the gasket compressing. That's why I do them multiple times.

 

1/03/2018 5:39 PM  #6


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

Hey John, hope you had a Merry Christmas. I haven't used lock washers since I read Carroll Smith's book Engineer to Win. He doesn't care for them at all, and he's kinda sharp.  The gaskets and rtv at the top rail of the block are all in good shape. I've used anti-seize on dissimilar metal threads for years after reading of the consequences of not using it.

Before I change bolts or go to studs I'm going to put some witness marks on the bolt heads and intake and keep any eye on them.

The Ford Racing alum installation instructions list 18 ft lbs of torque and ARP said 20 ft lbs. Did you guys torque into your aluminium heads with a different number?

When I build the motor I tightened them gradually in the Ford sequence and did the final torque number 3 times. After the cam break in, I re-torqued them 3 times at the final number. And then again after 500 miles I  re- torqued them. At each re-torque, there was at least 1/8th of a  turn of rotation.

Thanks guys, I appreciate your help.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
     Thread Starter
 

1/04/2018 6:37 PM  #7


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

I use ARP stainless bolts with antiseize on intakes bolted to aluminum heads. I have not experienced loosening.  I always torque the head bolts at least three times at the final value.
Seems the thing to do is retorque them if they loosen.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/04/2018 7:46 PM  #8


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

Thanks Steve, at least I know I'm not doing it wrong. Suppose I should've check them during the Bash trip knowing they had loosened after the first 500 miles. I did make a mental note, but I lost the note. I had so many things on my mind thrashing and driving during its maiden voyage, the intake bolts kinda slipped my mind.

Thanks again everyone.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
     Thread Starter
 

1/05/2018 7:14 AM  #9


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

rpm wrote:

Thanks Steve, at least I know I'm not doing it wrong. Suppose I should've check them during the Bash trip knowing they had loosened after the first 500 miles. I did make a mental note, but I lost the note. I had so many things on my mind thrashing and driving during its maiden voyage, the intake bolts kinda slipped my mind.

Thanks again everyone.

Coulda been worser, Bob.  I know a guy that had his upper control arms try to fall off.  FWIW, I have AFR heads with the stock intake and have had to re-tighten the manifold bolts twice now after a proper three-round torque sequence.  Nature of the beast, I think.

BB

BB


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

1/05/2018 10:44 AM  #10


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

Also, excessive use of sealer on the intake-to-head gaskets will cause the bolts to loosen up.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/05/2018 10:47 AM  #11


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

Gotta agree on lock washers.  Totally bogus.  Fastener stretch is what keeps a fastener torqued, not a spring under the bolt head.  On a nut and bolt connection if you're that worried about it loosening spend the extra couple cents and buy Nylock nuts or all metal locknuts for high heat applications where there's concern about the Nylon softening or melting out. 

Finally, when in doubt there's always safety wire.  Race cars use it, they got it from the aviation industry.  On the AT6 I restored with my neighbor all critical fasteners were safety wired.  The stuff to do it used to be kind of spendy, but its come down in price a lot in recent years.  All you need is a jig to drill bolt heads/nuts, safety wire pliers, and a spool of stainless safety wire.  Then you just spend a little time thinking about where the wire goes so it doesn't allow them to loosen.  It can't be that hard; I was doing it when I was 12. 

 

1/05/2018 11:35 AM  #12


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

Never tried it, but maybe something like these.
http://www.jegs.com/p/Percys/Percys-Vibe-Lock-Header-bolts/2342129/10002/-1
Though I suspect you would still be retightening after a while.


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

1/05/2018 12:33 PM  #13


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

I've used "locking" header bolts before and this is what I found: don't install the locks at first.  Run the engine and heat cycle everything, retorque them, THEN install the locks.  I can't say on this specific design, but on the Stage 8 header bolts they absolutely do work, if you follow the aforementioned. 

 

1/05/2018 1:56 PM  #14


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

I've been using safety wire since 1980 in my karting days. One thing you can take to the bank, I ain't drilling 12, 1/16" holes in the stainless bolt heads. I hate machining stainless, let alone drilling 12 tiny holes in it.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
     Thread Starter
 

1/05/2018 3:56 PM  #15


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

Bob, I was a great Christmas and New Year. Hope the same for you as well. I didn’t realize lock washers were taboo. I will have to look into that.
 
Two things caught my attention in the post.

rpm wrote:

Before I change bolts or go to studs I'm going to put some witness marks on the bolt heads and intake and keep any eye on them.

At each re-torque, there was at least 1/8th of a turn of rotation.

 
Are you sure there is a problem here?? From the comment on witness marks, I assume the bolts have never been loose enough to be turned with your fingers.  Is the movement during re-torques the main proof of loosening?? At 20 ft lb, you’re not talking about a lot of force.
 
What’s the chance the bolt is moving in reaction to the sensitivity or lack thereof for a small torque value compared to the overall range of the torque wrench? Not sure that make sense or not, it’s hard to type what I’m thinking!!
 


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

1/05/2018 5:56 PM  #16


Re: Who uses anti-seize on intake to aluminum head bolts?

Heck, I use anti seize on gaskets too! I use it on the intake, timing cover, water pump besides nuts and bolts. Never have a leak and the gaskets pull off CLEANLY next time.


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

Board footera


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