I would simply fix what you have rather than spend thousands to convert to rack and pinion.  If there's slop in the Borgeson system something is wrong.  My guess is that what you perceive as slop is one of two things.

The pump pressure is set WAY too high.  Out of the box the Saginaw pumps Borgeson sends are set to like 1,500psi worth of assist.  This can be adjusted by using the Borgeson 899001 kit.  Too much pressure makes the steering feel overly responsive and twitchy.  By reducing the pressure the effort required to turn the wheel is only increased a small amount, but the twitchiness goes away. 

And/or, there is not enough positive caster in the front end.  Borgeson states that the system requires 3-3.5 degrees positive caster, but that figure is not obtainable with stock suspension geometry.  The '65-'66 cars do not have adjustable strut rods, and caster can only be altered by shimming the upper control arms.  Even with adjustable strut rods the best you are going to get is something like 1.5 degrees, which just isn't going to cut it.  The lack of caster feels like the wheels wanders and doesn't want to return to center.  There are several solutions to the caster issue, but my preference would be the Shelby/Arning drop and adjustable strut rods.  The Shelby/Arning drop relocates the UCA down, but also rearward.  That rearward move builds a couple of degrees of positive caster into the system, and will allow you to achieve the 3-3.5 degrees of positive caster the system needs to work properly.  The adjustable strut rods allow you to adjust caster more easily and prevents you from having a thick stack of shims under the UCA shafts, which can cause problems. 

I too was initially unhappy with the Borgeson system, but after making those changes the car has been the way I'd envisioned it from the start.  If you're dead set on the rack and pinion for other reasons, fine.  If its just because you aren't happy with the Borgeson system as installed I'd simply look to fix that and spend the difference elsewhere on the car.  I think the Borgeson system is a good one, but they should include the pressure adjusting kit, and use the MS lower column bearing kit instead of that Mickey Mouse deal they send. 

My understanding is that you can run a Ford pump, and they are set around 1,100psi.  IMO the Saginaw pump is a better design, yeah, I know, heresy, but I'm a fan of what works regardless of who made it.  The Ford pumps tended to make a lot of noise, though it was usually less if you used the right fluid in them (typically F-type transmission fluid, NOT generic power steering fluid). 

I did the MS pedal support bearings too.  Much, much better than that factory pot metal bushing deal. 

The Borgeson system should run on regular power steering fluid.  Usually a sort of straw colored fluid, almost like brake fluid that's been sitting around a bit too long. 

The pulley size won't affect the pressure produced; all it will do is slow the pump down.  Pressure is set via the pressure relief valve.  Changes are made via adding or subtracting shims from it.  Borgeson sells a kit #899001 to do this.  I think its like $15 from Summit.  You can run the Saginaw pump all the way down to 900psi I think if you run 5 shims. 

In my experience the Saginaw pumps are more reliable and quiet.  I've replaced one Saginaw pump to a half dozen Ford pumps over the years, and I've had plenty of GM stuff as well as Ford.  The Saginaw pump was designed in the '70s and used through the '90s.  During that time Ford changed pumps several times in various efforts to cure various problems (noise, cavitation, etc.).  The C2 Ford pumps are pretty good, and easy to rebuild (Fox Mustang era). but like I said, if you have the Saginaw pump now I'd just get the kit and reduce the pressure.  I did mine still mounted to the engine.  Took maybe an hour to do the whole thing. 

Last edited by TKOPerformance (9/14/2018 6:59 PM)

No Shims 1350PSI
1 Shim 1200PSI
2 Shims 1100PSI
3 Shims 1000PSI
4 Shims 850PSI
5 Shims 700PSI

Love you guys! Finally a REAL forum!!!
So, what pressure works best ?

I do feel an excessive steering assistance but there is more:
My Borgeson System “whistles” when I’m not moving, at idle, wheels straight and I don’t have my hands on the steering wheel.
Noise goes away as soon as I apply a bit of pressure on the steering wheel.
The whistle sound is kind of what you hear on any car when you keep forcing on the steering wheel in a locked right of left position.
When I told Borgeson they replied that they had never heard anything like that... and advised to adjust the box set screw (which had absolutely no effect).

I’m French, I drive my car the hard way.

Bentworker wrote:

Dropping the pressure on a Saginaw pump is quite easy - just a little messy.

TKO allready laid out the parts to use.

You just disconnect the pressure line from the pump, then unscrew the bulkhead like fitting that the pressure line screws into. That gets you to the regulator piston you have to fish out of there. Probably the worst thing is figuring out a way to hold the piston without damage to remove the nut on the end and add shims. If you know someone with a lathe that has a collet chuck that works best for holding it.

The Borgeson it comes with a sleeve used to hold the valve.  You have to tighten it down in the vice a bit tighter than you think you should, but it works well.

I'm running 4 shims and like it.  5 might be better, but working on other stuff right now, so maybe some other day.

Could be an alignment issue.  I'd start with the alignment.  You can't align these cars with the old specs because they were for bias ply tires, and the car will handle like a death trap. 

I would absolutely do the Shelby drop, because any time you modify the steering and the return to center is altered the lack of ability to put positive caster into it rears its ugly head.  Using the Shelby drop you should set it to 0 degrees of camber, or 0.5 degrees negative.  As much positive caster as you can dial in, at least 3 degrees, and its a good idea to be about 0.25-0.5 degrees more on the right side to account for the road crown.  Then set toe at about 1/16" in per side.  Start there and see if it improves. 

Remember folks, there are two major items to consider in a hydraulic system. Pressure and flow, I have fixed many of overly touchy power steering systems with an orifice and left the pressure alone to give easy slow speed (parking) effort. A lot of the race folks use higher pressure and lower flow (smaller orifice) to achieve the best balance. A lot of those "relief" valves are really combo valves that also control flow. So, an orifice change often times solves the issue of too fast of steering response.

What’s your toe set at? I had installed a bumpsteer kit and never went back  to reset toe after I did my testing. It was on my to do list that got pushed back as the car seemed to drive ok with the tire pressure set on the low side. Once aired up it  it was a bit touchy to steering input as far as it didn’t like to track straight holding the steering wheel in my hands. If I drove with my finger tips it was ok. Also it had a quick turn in. When you started a turn the car felt like there were casters in the back. I was aware of it when driving but I could see it catching someone off guard.

When you turn, the the tires go from toe in to toe out and toe out increases the more you turn. This is Ackerman as the inner and out tires follow different turn radius. You can get a dominant wheel where the car wants to follow the arc of one wheel then follows the arc of the other wheel which can give you a wandering feeling in a straight line if toe isn’t quite right. A lot of autocross guys will adjust toe to induce this to make the car snap around. When I did check toe finally on my car it was around 3/16 to 1/4 inch. I’ve got my car set to 1/16” which made a noticeable improvement in driving. The car tracks very well and that caster in the rear feel is gone. The car is very predictable and confident in turns.


One thing I have learned on my journey is the more you make changes, the more you need to get involved

Last edited by Huskinhano (9/17/2018 10:34 PM)

Huskinhano wrote:

What’s your toe set at? I had installed a bumpsteer kit and never went back to reset toe after I did my testing. It was on my to do list that got pushed back as the car seemed to drive ok with the tire pressure set on the low side. Once aired up it it was a bit touchy to steering input as far as it didn’t like to track straight holding the steering wheel in my hands. If I drove with my finger tips it was ok. Also it had a quick turn in. When you started a turn the car felt like there were casters in the back. I was aware of it when driving but I could see it catching someone off guard.

When you turn, the the tires go from toe in to toe out and toe out increases the more you turn. This is Ackerman as the inner and out tires follow different turn radius. You can get a dominant wheel where the car wants to follow the arc of one wheel then follows the arc of the other wheel which can give you a wandering feeling in a straight line if toe isn’t quite right. A lot of autocross guys will adjust toe to induce this to make the car snap around. When I did check toe finally on my car it was around 3/16 to 1/4 inch. I’ve got my car set to 1/16” which made a noticeable improvement in driving. The car tracks very well and that caster in the rear feel is gone. The car is very predictable and confident in turns.


One thing I have learned on my journey is the more you make changes, the more you need to get involved

I did do the Shelby Drop.  I had it aligned to the Street or Track street specs.  It was quite a few years ago.  I was going to work on it this winter.   My UCA Heim joints were really squeaky.   They sent me a new set.  So Im going to do that.  Were you using a rack when you added your Bumpsteer Kit?  
 

Steve69 wrote:

Huskinhano wrote:

What’s your toe set at? I had installed a bumpsteer kit and never went back to reset toe after I did my testing. It was on my to do list that got pushed back as the car seemed to drive ok with the tire pressure set on the low side. Once aired up it it was a bit touchy to steering input as far as it didn’t like to track straight holding the steering wheel in my hands. If I drove with my finger tips it was ok. Also it had a quick turn in. When you started a turn the car felt like there were casters in the back. I was aware of it when driving but I could see it catching someone off guard.

When you turn, the the tires go from toe in to toe out and toe out increases the more you turn. This is Ackerman as the inner and out tires follow different turn radius. You can get a dominant wheel where the car wants to follow the arc of one wheel then follows the arc of the other wheel which can give you a wandering feeling in a straight line if toe isn’t quite right. A lot of autocross guys will adjust toe to induce this to make the car snap around. When I did check toe finally on my car it was around 3/16 to 1/4 inch. I’ve got my car set to 1/16” which made a noticeable improvement in driving. The car tracks very well and that caster in the rear feel is gone. The car is very predictable and confident in turns.


One thing I have learned on my journey is the more you make changes, the more you need to get involved

I did do the Shelby Drop.  I had it aligned to the Street or Track street specs.  It was quite a few years ago.  I was going to work on it this winter.   My UCA Heim joints were really squeaky.   They sent me a new set.  So Im going to do that.  Were you using a rack when you added your Bumpsteer Kit?  
 

No R&P, drag link. I have 72 spindles which have different geometry. The arms are angled in more by 3/8”, shorter by about 7/16” and have less horizontal offset by 1/2”. The issue is the suspension had a ton of travel. With it being rear steer, as the suspension drops, the tires toe in and as the suspension compresses the tires toe out. For argument sake at normal ride height with stock alignment the suspension is let’s say the middle of it’s travel. As you drive from let’s say the total toe change is 1/2  from drop to compression. That’s a lot but from normal ride height that’s only 1/4”?either way. As you modify the suspension and the car becomes lower you now have changed that 50/50 travel to something like 25/75 where you’re more biased to drop and less biased to compression. When you set your toe the same way at normal ride height since your more bias the drop instead of gaining 1/4” more toe in, you might end up with 1/2” more toe in besides your base setting. This is where you get your problems now. As you accelerate of go over RR tracks, the suspension drops and you get this huge toe in that binds the suspension up. The nose stays up and the tires squeal until you hit the brakes and force everything back. In a nut shell the object is to make the tie rod assembly as long as you can make them. You can do this several ways. Bump steer kit, more caster as it works similar to a bump steer kit as it lowers the outer tie rod closer to the road which means you must lengthen the tie rod assembly. Last, limit toe in. At one point I was thinking of going to toe out instead of toe in. If you check on Steve’s tech tips about Granada discs on 65/66 Mustangs he suggests trying a little toe out. That was reassuring that I was on the right track.

Ideally you want the tie rod assembly pivots the same as the lower ball joint and control arm bolt. This forms a parallelogram. This will not steer the car (bumpsteer). which is probably hard to get on our cars, the next best option is to make the tie rod assembly as long as possible to make it’s arc more gradual and influence unwanted steering as much as possible.

When I installed the bumpsteer kit on my car I started to make a bumpsteer gauge but in the end I kept installing spacers until it drove fine. I can tell you more then likely that anyone installing a bumpsteer kit just add all the spacers in. I would also say that it’s driving fine with my current tires. If I went to a wider or stickier tire I could very well have some bumpsteer again

If you get the sizes you can order the good ones from Summit, McMaster, etc.  Just select the type with the Teflon lined races and they'll be quiet and a little softer on your seat too.