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11/27/2018 9:05 PM  #1


1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

The 351w engine checks out good for rebuild,will be bored 30 over. 9.5 to 1,iron heads,performer intake,
600 Edelbrock 1406, stock exhaust manifolds,2 1/4 h pipe,2 1/2 inch rest of exhaust with turbo mufflers,
wide ratio 4 spd, 325 9" rear end. The builder recommend's comp cams,high energy 268h (rpm range
1500-5500), I also looked at a high energy 260h (rpm range 1200-5200), this cam being a little milder
making more torque at lower& mid range. Has any one used these cams? I want good drive ability. Mostly
cruising, would the 268h cam have enough grunt or torque ,under 1500 rpm ? Or would I be better with
the 260h cam ? The 289 a code 4v, was no speed demon, but had torque, once in fourth I seldom had to
downshift. I'm just not sure which would be the best cam for me. I can use all your input and experience
on this one. THANKS  mustang stu

 

11/27/2018 10:54 PM  #2


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

Should be real smooth in a 351 W engine.
Its a better fit in a 289 engine.
I would urge you to check into a custom ground cam.(usually the same price than an off  the shelf grind).
With stock exhaust manifolds I would want a little more duration on the exhaust side to give the exhaust a little more time to get cleared out of the chamber.
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/28/2018 6:58 AM  #3


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

With a carb and iron heads the compression is really too high for this engine's intended operating range.  You're running the risk of detonation on an engine that's going to be topped out at 5,500RPM.  Its sort of like putting an elevator in an outhouse.

If you're just trying to build a torque mule then set compression at no more than 9:1.  That's still likely going to require premium fuel, but its a better match for a baby cam.

I agree with a custom cam grind.  At the very least call one of the major cam companies and talk to a tech guy.  Explain what the car is, what your goals are, and let him pick the cam.  Possibly an off the shelf one will work best, possibly its a custom grind, but this way you get the best possible cam, selected by a guy who knows cams inside and out.  Often there are off the shelf cams that don't show up in the catalogs from Summit, Jegs, etc.  I have been using Crane for almost two decades now.  I've always been happy with the cams they've sent.  Their tech department will actually pick up the phone, and their staff is very knowledgeable.  I then just buy right from them.  It may cost me $20 more than buying the same cam from one of the big houses, but I believe in rewarding companies that provide great customer service. 

 

11/28/2018 2:14 PM  #4


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

I do believe talking your combination over with a couple of the tech guys at cam companies. However,  the stock M code 351w had 10.7 cr with iron heads, and the 2v H code had 9.5 cr.

I have a comp cams 268xe flat tappet in my 351w, stroked to 393. While I do have an extra ~42 inches on the stroke, and many folks think the 268 is small, I am happy with it and have enough torque to make driving with 2.50 rear gears when I had the fmx, a non issue.

I would not discount your engine builders recommendation. Just be thankful his name isn't 6sally6!


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

11/28/2018 2:21 PM  #5


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

I have a '70 351w w/iron(DO0E) heads in my '66.  Stock sized valves, and some porting.  Recently I changed over to a Comp Cams retro roller cam.  (XR270RF-HR10) Specs:  270-276 -  218I-224E @0.050.  Lift : 0.512". Lsa 110*.  Stock springs and roller rockers.  It pulls from 1200, but really comes on at 1500.  Even though ported the iron heads are all done by 5500, but I seldom have the need to go that high.  5 grand is the max I really do.
Trans is a T5, wide ratio.  3.00 rear end.
I am quite satisfied.
I talked to Comp and they were willing to build whatever cam I wanted as long as it used off the shelf lobe configurations.  We worked together for some time before we settled on the final spec.  It might even be an off the shelf cam.  I never found it on their web sight.

Last edited by lowercasesteve (11/28/2018 2:43 PM)


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

11/28/2018 4:20 PM  #6


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

rpm wrote:

I do believe talking your combination over with a couple of the tech guys at cam companies. However, the stock M code 351w had 10.7 cr with iron heads, and the 2v H code had 9.5 cr.

Yes, but that was when 100+ octane leaded fuel was available at every gas station.  Now you are lucky to find 93 octane.  Also, those were the manufacturer's claimed numbers.  I've always found those to be rather optimistic.  Typically I've found when measuring that they are at least 0.5 point lower than stated. 

A lumpy cam can cheat the number by bleeding off compression at lower RPM due to increased overlap.  If the plan was a street/strip car on a budget I'd say go ahead and go that route, but his plan's the exact opposite of that.  You are going to want a cam that has very little overlap, and is going to bolster low speed compression as a result.  Its the difference between static and dynamic compression.  I've built a lot of iron headed truck and boat engines for low end grunt and I learned quick not to go past 9:1 with iron heads and a cam designed for low end torque, and a lot of the BBCs I built ran great at only 8.5:1.  If he had EFI he could probably get away with it, but I wouldn't chance it with a carb. 
 

 

11/28/2018 10:38 PM  #7


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

The OP seems reeeally concerned about smooth idle/low end power.
The Comp cam 268H should give him that!
I personally would want it ground on a 108* LSA as a "little insurance" against low RPM pinging because of the iron heads and 93 octane fuel.
Sure...it may be a little grumpy at low RPM (750RPM) butt.....by 1000RPM up it will be pulling and making power.  Just take a look at how fast/slow you are going at 1000RPM. That is just above idle speed!!!
AND with a 4 speed..... 224-230 @ 050 duration  on a 108* LSA.....AND 351+ 030  cu. in. engine!!!
Old  Hi Po 289's wish they were that EZ to drive on the street!
6s6

Last edited by 6sally6 (11/28/2018 10:39 PM)


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/29/2018 6:57 AM  #8


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

I fully agree with the others on talking to several cam companies. I’ve never dealt with Comp Cams, I’m sure they make good cams but they are not the only company making cams. They spend a lot on advertising. The one complaint I hear about them is when you call for tech advice, they’re pretty much reading off a scripted flow chart. A couple years back I was thinking about a cam and called Howard’s Cams. Great people. I spoke with several techs, all were friendly and spoke 1 on 1 with you. I hear Isky is the same way. Definitely at a minimum talk to several cam companies to get free advice for the right cam. A custom ground is even better.

The other issue I have are the stock heads. The 289 heads are a restriction on a 289 due to the exhaust port. The early 351W heads despite having larger intake port and larger intake and exhaust valves, has the same size exhaust port as a 289. Even with the larger 1.54” vs 1.45” valve, it doesn’t flow any better on the exhaust then a 289 head.

I would step back for a moment and think about different heads possibly. I would think about something like a GT40 head. Bigger exhaust port and bigger combustion chamber. They will flow better and lower the CR to something more friendly. The down side is the cost to rebuild them as well as the stock heads with a little port work may very well put you close if not in to a set of aluminum heads. Something like the Edelbrock E Street heads. They’re more of a budget friendly head that makes more power then stock heads for about the price of rebuilt stock heads.

Once you have better flowing heads, you can use a milder cam to meet your power goals with better characteristics


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

11/29/2018 7:45 AM  #9


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

I considered giving Comp a shot at my last cam.  I couldn't get anyone on the phone and they took a week to respond to my email.  I had the cam from Crane by the time they bothered to reply to my email.  Frankly that's all I need to know.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and I'll be sticking with Crane from here on out unless something changes. 

That's interesting on the 351 heads Huskinhano.  I used to hear about guys searching high and low for 351 heads to put on their 5.0s.  It made no sense to me that a 20 year old head design was going to be better than a modern performance head, or even the E7TE heads they had stock.  This was in the late '80s, early '90s too.  Before aluminum heads were cheap and everyone used them.  Today, unless there are racing class rules, its a restoration, or the budget is super, super tight (no porting, etc.) I see no reason to reuse iron heads of any generation.  It initially seems cheap, but once you start adding up all the costs you hit that $1,000 mark pretty quick, and there are several aluminum aftermarket options out there for $1,000 that are going to be better than most sets of worked over iron heads. 

 

11/29/2018 9:14 AM  #10


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

TKOPerformance wrote:

I considered giving Comp a shot at my last cam.  I couldn't get anyone on the phone and they took a week to respond to my email.  I had the cam from Crane by the time they bothered to reply to my email.  Frankly that's all I need to know.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and I'll be sticking with Crane from here on out unless something changes. 

That's interesting on the 351 heads Huskinhano.  I used to hear about guys searching high and low for 351 heads to put on their 5.0s.  It made no sense to me that a 20 year old head design was going to be better than a modern performance head, or even the E7TE heads they had stock.  This was in the late '80s, early '90s too.  Before aluminum heads were cheap and everyone used them.  Today, unless there are racing class rules, its a restoration, or the budget is super, super tight (no porting, etc.) I see no reason to reuse iron heads of any generation.  It initially seems cheap, but once you start adding up all the costs you hit that $1,000 mark pretty quick, and there are several aluminum aftermarket options out there for $1,000 that are going to be better than most sets of worked over iron heads. 

Yeah, google flow charts on SBF heads or comparisons. The reason 351W became popular is simple, it WAS the only other option. The other thing, back in the day intake port size on aftermarket intakes were more or less sized to the 289/302 head. So the intake would still be a restriction. The old Torker everyone loves would be a restriction on today’s heads.

As far as stock factory sbf heads go, the P heads are my favorite. If, you have a good set that doesn’t need rebuilding and you can work around the plug angle, I think the the P heads can work out very well for a small budget. I wouldn’t dump a lot of money in them mostly because like any other factory head, you’re going to have a lot of money invested

This guy was running a stock GT40P longblock with 100k miles and the heads were never off. He’s using a custom ground cam and I’m sure lots of tuning but still.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-X66KA_jfMI


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

11/29/2018 10:13 AM  #11


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

Huskinhano wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

I considered giving Comp a shot at my last cam.  I couldn't get anyone on the phone and they took a week to respond to my email.  I had the cam from Crane by the time they bothered to reply to my email.  Frankly that's all I need to know.  If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and I'll be sticking with Crane from here on out unless something changes. 

That's interesting on the 351 heads Huskinhano.  I used to hear about guys searching high and low for 351 heads to put on their 5.0s.  It made no sense to me that a 20 year old head design was going to be better than a modern performance head, or even the E7TE heads they had stock.  This was in the late '80s, early '90s too.  Before aluminum heads were cheap and everyone used them.  Today, unless there are racing class rules, its a restoration, or the budget is super, super tight (no porting, etc.) I see no reason to reuse iron heads of any generation.  It initially seems cheap, but once you start adding up all the costs you hit that $1,000 mark pretty quick, and there are several aluminum aftermarket options out there for $1,000 that are going to be better than most sets of worked over iron heads. 

Yeah, google flow charts on SBF heads or comparisons. The reason 351W became popular is simple, it WAS the only other option. The other thing, back in the day intake port size on aftermarket intakes were more or less sized to the 289/302 head. So the intake would still be a restriction. The old Torker everyone loves would be a restriction on today’s heads.

As far as stock factory sbf heads go, the P heads are my favorite. If, you have a good set that doesn’t need rebuilding and you can work around the plug angle, I think the the P heads can work out very well for a small budget. I wouldn’t dump a lot of money in them mostly because like any other factory head, you’re going to have a lot of money invested

This guy was running a stock GT40P longblock with 100k miles and the heads were never off. He’s using a custom ground cam and I’m sure lots of tuning but still.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-X66KA_jfMI

I agree with you both.  These days no stock, or ported, iron head will flow as well as a modern aluminum one.  Back in the day - 80's - I chose to port my DO0E heads for budgetary reasons.  $700.  Early aluminum heads were over $1,500 bare.  Valves and springs were extra.

As to fuel requirements, I run 92 octane gas on the 351w.  no problems.  No one needs to worry about knocking.
 


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

11/29/2018 10:25 AM  #12


Re: 1969 351w into 67 coupe, cam help

The P heads should be the best.  They were the last evolution before 5.0 production ceased in favor of the modular based engines.  Great port design.  The GT 40 was a great design for its day.  One of my good friends has a '95 Cobra with a 306 DSS shortblock topped with the stock GT40 heads (worked over of course) and topped with a Kenne Belle blower.  That car is ridiculous.  In 3rd gear at 60MPH if you floor it the tires break loose.  He leaves probably 150-200HP on the table with the street tune he runs because otherwise its just totally unmanageable on the street. 

The limitation with even the best of the stock heads is the same as those of any make/model.  They weren't designed for much more power than what the engine they came on made stock.  The valvesprings won't tolerate a big cam.  Low lift flow is great, but go much past 0.500 lift and they stop flowing well.  This was the problem with the GM Vortec heads and I'd presume the Mopar Magnum heads too.  If you were a machinist by trade and could eliminate most of the costs of modifying them then its a different story, and its not that they can't be made to work well; its purely cost.  The biggest thing now is finding a decent set, because the newest ones are probably 15 years old.  I heard the production GT40s had a problem with cracking, not sure if this affected the P heads too.  Vehicles sitting outside in wrecking yards can have the coolant freeze, etc.  Not a problem in some areas of the country, but it sure is around here.  Like anything else you've just got to be smart about what you buy.  Any engine build is expensive to some degree for most of us, but when you end up having to buy things twice it really starts to get out of hand. 
 

 

Board footera


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