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12/12/2018 6:42 AM  #1


speaking about RPM

Hello all,  just talking about RPM  on stock 289 engine .  After rebuilding  my engine i was very calm touching high rpm for a sort of respect on break in . Now i have done enough miles to push the pedal to metal , but with my surprise  i feel that is very hard pass 4000 rpm . 
many times ( also with axle ratio calculator , has a reference point max rpm at 5500) 
and i can't really believe my engine could arrive at that point .  Not that i need to test it  , but i feel that mine  max rpm are less than others engine . Normally , also pushing hard , i dont' feel nothing after 3800/ 4000 . 
How you call the " cam zone "  is it the torque moment ?   I am referring at torque max moment .
i feel that torque is around 2500.  Should it be higher ? 
i think this depends on wich cam are on , right ? or there other things involved ?
About rpm gauge is aftermarket and readings between gauge and strobe light are correct .

What you think about it ?

 

12/12/2018 9:21 AM  #2


Re: speaking about RPM

The problem with the typical sbf 289/302 head is that they don’t breath well especially on the exhaust side. As you found out it starts to lay down around 4000 rpm. The object of installing a cam to make more HP is to move the point where the engine makes it’s peak power to a higher RPM. This means you’re moving more air/fuel in the same time period this making more power. When you do this you’re also taking away lower RPM power. If you install a cam designed to make more power at a higher RPM with a set of cylinder heads like the sbf that don’t make power past 4000 RPM, you’re still not going to make more power. What you will end up with is a motor that makes less power everywhere and performs poorly. It all has to be matched, intake, exhaust, cam, heads, gear ratio, shift points and converter stall speed if automatic.

You can buy heads that flow better or modify the stock heads to flow better. You could easily have as much invested or more in stock heads then just to buy a set of aftermarket heads. With better breathing heads, you don’t need as much cam timing either for your HP goals. You’ll end up with a motor that has a much broader power band then sticking in a big cam on poor flowing heads even if both make the same peak power.

The other thing with a larger motor, you don’t need to rev them as high. That’s why Americans like big V8’s. They just loaf along quietly. Before automatic transmissions big engines were used so you could drive most of the time in high gear and not constantly shift.

In my 66 I have a Explorer GT40P. The GT40P heads are probably the best mass produced sbf made. Over a stock 289/302 they’re probably worth about 30 hp. That’s enough to make a nice difference. I run a stock Mustang 5.0 cam and with the better breathing heads it makes a nice broad power band that will very easily rev past 5000 but will cruise at low speed in 4th with a 2.80 gear ratio with no issues.

When picking a cam the absolute best thing to do is call several cam companies. You’ll get FREE EXPERT advice. They will ask you all sorts of questions about your car and how you drive. You will get the right cam this way.


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

12/12/2018 8:54 PM  #3


Re: speaking about RPM

Have you "modified" the ignition curve in the distrib.?  Lighter springs   etc.?
Lotsa power locked up in the duraspark....FoMoCo set them up for better gas mileage and didn't worry too much about performance.
Get the full advance in by 2000 rpm and a total of 36*.
Tell me you have already done this!!.......Don't make me upset with you!! 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

12/13/2018 2:08 AM  #4


Re: speaking about RPM

6sally6 wrote:

Have you "modified" the ignition curve in the distrib.? Lighter springs etc.?
Lotsa power locked up in the duraspark....FoMoCo set them up for better gas mileage and didn't worry too much about performance.
Get the full advance in by 2000 rpm and a total of 36*.
Tell me you have already done this!!.......Don't make me upset with you!!

Thanks but i do not have spring in my distributor .  i think are in the 302's....
Lotsa power locked up in the duraspark.   What this means ? 
i will do for sure step by step  the distributor . i would never upset Sally  

     Thread Starter
 

12/13/2018 6:18 AM  #5


Re: speaking about RPM

Alessandro wrote:

6sally6 wrote:

Have you "modified" the ignition curve in the distrib.? Lighter springs etc.?
Lotsa power locked up in the duraspark....FoMoCo set them up for better gas mileage and didn't worry too much about performance.
Get the full advance in by 2000 rpm and a total of 36*.
Tell me you have already done this!!.......Don't make me upset with you!!

Thanks but i do not have spring in my distributor .  i think are in the 302's....
Lotsa power locked up in the duraspark.   What this means ? 
i will do for sure step by step  the distributor . i would never upset Sally  

Besides setting the initial timing with the timing light the distributor itself advances timing. It does it two way. There is vacuum advance which is controlled by engine vacuum. Vacuum advance is mostly for fuel economy. Under light load it advances timing quite a bit. As the load increases, the timing falls off to avoid detonation we hear as pinging or knocking. It’s very destructive to the engine.

What Sally is talking about and a good comment is mechanical timing. Inside the distributor are two weights that fly out as speed increases. The weights have a spring on them to hold them back and regulate how quickly they fly out. As they fly out, they move the plate inside the distributor that controls when the coil fires a plug. In stock form the rate of advance is slow. More then likely the total amount of mechanical advance will never come in. This makes the engine feel lazy. Typically a Ford distributor has 20 degrees of mechanical advances with generally 10 degrees initial. This gives 30 degrees total which will probably be around 4000 rpm.

Generally Ford engines perform best with around 36 to 38 degrees total timing. On the 271 hp K code instead of 4000 rpm, the total timing was in around 2500. Having the timing come in this quick will really wake up the car. The engine will be far more responsive and get better fuel mileage. There are kits with various size springs that you can change out to quicken the rate. The springs are a little bit of a pain to get to. The best thing to do is have a shop perform this. Years back Sun usevto make a distributor machine that you would put the distributor in. The machine would spin it and it would show when the spark would come at what RPM. Today these machines are not that common with today’s computer controlled cars.

As I was saying before, you could fudge it at home. You’ll need a tachometer, timing light and have either a balancer that is marked in degrees up to around 40 degrees or they make a tape for your specific balancer. Or with a little math you can find the circumference of the balancer and mark out 40 or so degrees.

Every car is going to be different so you may not be able to run 36/38 total degrees or have the timing all in at 2500 rpm.


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

12/13/2018 8:53 AM  #6


Re: speaking about RPM

Alessandro - here is a link about recurving Ford distributors to advance the timing quicker.

https://www.modmotortech.com/forums/internal-external-engine-22/ultimate-duraspark-ignition-timing-guide-598/

 

12/13/2018 8:20 PM  #7


Re: speaking about RPM

http://reincarnation-automotive.com/Duraspark_distributor_recurve_instructions_index.html

Here ya go Alessandro!!       Even has pictures.
PS...........6sally6 ain't mad at nobody!


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

12/14/2018 5:57 PM  #8


Re: speaking about RPM

The hydraulic cam 289s don't really like to rev.  Its sounds crazy since the engine is so small, but Ford built them to make as much low speed torque as possible, and they actually do an amazing job of it, with over 300 lbs/ft.  The downside is they are done right around 4,800RPM.  You can rev them higher, but get nothing out of it.  With a Performer intake, 500cfm Edlebrock carb, JBA headers, 2-1/2" Magnaflow exhaust, and recruved distributor with 38 degrees total timing I find mine pulls strong to about 5,000, but that's about it.  I know I'd have to change the cam and/or heads to get any more power out of it.  I had a strip trip planned for late October, but after making the trip the track was closed due to cold weather (?) and "high winds" (didn't feel any wind that night to speak of).  One thing I was going to play with after getting a consistent launch was shift point.  Previously in stock form, crazy as it sounds it wanted to shift at 4,500RPM.  That's how I got my best times out of it, which were a string of mid 15s. 

 

12/15/2018 5:57 AM  #9


Re: speaking about RPM

First , thanks to all , i realized that i got an old damper that is not marked as described  10 / 40  deg. 
this only refers at 0  / 3   / 6   /  12  ...  this make me difficult to find  36 / 40 degrees for total timing .  Also marks are diffficult to read if i want to be sharp. 
I  have one stickers to use as timing marks  , but really is not matching between damper and stickers .  I will do some tryals and maybe a new dampeer.. 

     Thread Starter
 

12/15/2018 6:28 AM  #10


Re: speaking about RPM

You can measure the circumference of the damper with a flexible tape measure, then divide the number by 360, take some tape and a ruler and mark off timing marks based on your result.  Then just sick the tape around the damper starting at 0. 

I've done this a couple times when a timing tape wasn't available.  FWIW, its nice to have marks at 90, 180, and 270 too in case you ever need to lash the valves. 

 

Board footera


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