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1/02/2015 5:28 PM  #1


Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

No emergency brakes for re-entry!?

Am I the first one to want emergency brakes on a 1965 with Mustang GT discs or am I just lucky?

I tripple checked, I have the right discs on the right sides.  Here is a straight-down shot looking at the emergency brake bracket on the right side.  You can't see the depth perspective, but it's not far.  I assume that with the 65 rear-end thats significantly narrow than the 67+ it is moving the brakes closer to the spring perches.  Once I tighten everthing down, it will be moving at least another 1/8" towards center.  With a u-bolt and spring perch, I am going to lose another inch of clearance, and that cable will be doing tight s turns before wrapping underneath the rear axle.

Will that big heavy brake cable just bend around that and wrap the axle underneath?  Would like to think there is nothing to worry about here .. but I think not.

I took the easy stuff off the bracket, and there is a boss on the other side of the casting that might allow for it to be rotated nearly 180 degrees, pointing the brakes up?  The bottom part of the bracket has a seal underneath so it definitely comes off, but not sure if it is splined and what angles it might support.

So what are my options here, and what have other people done?  Pics of 65/66 gt emergency brake cables?





This is the left caliper:



Hmm, nothing left to do but see what will come off:

 

1/02/2015 5:51 PM  #2


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

hello;

ok, i am nit sure what you are asking.

1. looking at the las caliper photo. the bleeder must be facing around 11 o clock . . if it is less than 11 o clock, it will have air bubbles when you bleed it . . the fitting on the other caliper needs to face 1 o clock.

the brake cable really shouldn;t go under the axle and no it should not make a tight bend.
 

 

1/02/2015 9:38 PM  #3


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

Purely a question on the emergency brake cable routing.

Under the axle appears to be intended.

http://fyi.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=21716#p21716

No place for it to go except through the spring plate..

No easy way to re-clock the cable hook-ups..

Brackets clocked at 2:00, calipers correct.

Bleader at 11:00 relative to the banjo bolt, perspective makes it look like it is straight up.

Please, tell me where I am wrong, or help me find a picture .. I want to be wrong.

     Thread Starter
 

1/02/2015 9:57 PM  #4


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

ok, you want your caliper to be at or between the 2 positions shown in the photos in your link.

in other words, the calopers mounts from 10 and 11 o clock . . this will out the bleeder whaere i said it should be.

the cable is designed to go under the axle on this but what i meant was that it is not really the best location.

clocking the caliper at 10 no clock will will put a little less of a bend in the cable . . you could make it so it routes from the top but you would have to do a few mods.

you might be able to switch the brackets and the pistons from one side to the other.

 

Last edited by barnett468 (1/02/2015 10:00 PM)

 

1/02/2015 10:32 PM  #5


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

I don't think I have the pictures to show what I did with these calipers but I shaped a piece and welded it into the opening in the bracket that the housing mounts into, I then redrilled the hole for the screw so that it re-clocked the bracket to allow the cable to go over the top of the axle housing. the arm is splined so that it allowed the arm to be re-clocked to the relationship of both pieces stayed the same. 

I hope this makes sense. 


The amount of fun is directly proportionate to the damage done.
 

1/02/2015 11:26 PM  #6


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

Lil' Hoss wrote:

I don't think I have the pictures to show what I did with these calipers but I shaped a piece and welded it into the opening in the bracket that the housing mounts into, I then redrilled the hole for the screw so that it re-clocked the bracket to allow the cable to go over the top of the axle housing. the arm is splined so that it allowed the arm to be re-clocked to the relationship of both pieces stayed the same. 

I hope this makes sense. 

Actually I kinda followed that, that's why I had the bracket apart to try to see if it could be rotated but was hesitent to pop the next part off without knowing more about what I was getting into.  Seems like 90 degrees would be about right.

Would really appreciate if you have any pictures that you can share, and any observations about whether you would do it the exact same way again.  Did I mention pictures?


[url=http://fyi.boardhost.com/profile.php?id=915 wrote:

barnett468[/url]]you might be able to switch the brackets and the pistons from one side to the other.

The bleader and banjo ports are what they are, so if you switched sides, the bleader would be on the bottom.  If you swap the brackets I am pretty sure nothing will clear the frame.  If you mean the actual cable brackets, they would have to push instead of pull unless there are some internals that can swap too?  I don't currently see any open options with relocating the Steve's brackets or these calipers for this application, but looking for the easiest solution.


I may have been a little confusing since the calipers get swapped, the one on the axle is the drivers side caliper, the one on the bench was the passenger side, originally the left hand part #.

     Thread Starter
 

1/02/2015 11:29 PM  #7


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

Do you have the LH caliper on the rear of the RH axle as per instructions?  The cable points straight down and must curve to go under the axle.  You must use a replacement cable that is capable of making the bend.  The best fix for this is a piece of steel tubing with a 90 degree bend in it and some fabricated brackets to run the wire through.  But running them under the axle does work.  If anyone ever asks me to compare the Cobra calipers with the GT calipers, I always suggest the Cobra is alot better due to a better e-brake cable routing.
And you MUST hook up the ebrake or wear of the rear pads will not be adjusted properly by the caliper.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/02/2015 11:45 PM  #8


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

i did not say to switch the caliper, i said look at switching the brackets and the piston if possible then position the caliper at 11 o clock instead of 10 o c,lock, this will require less of a bend in the cable amd the bleeder will still be where i said it should.
.

 

1/03/2015 1:23 AM  #9


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

Not sure how I could have the caliper on the wrong side with the bleader still pointing up, and the emergency bracket pointing down, so feeling pretty positive they are on the correct sides and the brackets are installed as instructed.

Below is a picture of the vertical clearance.  Note that the cable mount is resting on the top of the bracket, not inserted from the bottom, and that it is also sitting at an angle without any u-bolt or spring plate to go around.  I will lose some vertical, and have more to clear when properly assembled with a tight 90 to get out followed by another 45+ to point forward.

Unfortunately I never asked for a comparison, I bought the rear gt brackets to match the front ones that I already had based on all that I could read and never came across any hint of how difficult this might be or how custom it would have to get.

Open options are:

1.  Steel tubing with a 90 degree bend and frabricated brackets.
2.  Extend the cable bracket/drill new hole to reclock it.
3.  Maybe swap the cable brackets and pistons between the calipers.
4.  ?

I will pull the caliper further apart tomorrow and see where it leads..


     Thread Starter
 

1/03/2015 2:25 AM  #10


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

wait, what?  Stock width rear?

2012 GT brakes front & rear w/MS brackets

     Thread Starter
 

1/03/2015 10:28 AM  #11


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

I searched more last night and didn't find the pictures, must have been on my computor when the hard drive crashed, and my car is put away in storage for the winter so I don't have easy access to take pictures. Trying to picture in my mind what I did now, my calipers are mounted on the rear side of the axle so I must have swapped left and right side to side because the cables will pull straight forward. (When I get them installed)  The new hole that needs to be drilled is in the piece that is welded in to the opening in the bracket if that helps. 


The amount of fun is directly proportionate to the damage done.
 

1/03/2015 11:07 PM  #12


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

Pulled the second bracket off and it is in-fact splined.  Played with swapping the brackets, but even if the pistons could be swapped, I could not come up with any angle that was workable.  With the original brackets, I have a range of angles that could work, but don't know which is best?

In the two pictures, the first one shows the minimum angle change that would have the emergency brakes exiting horizontal above the axle.  Note the original screw is exactly on the edge and by tilting a little downward it maybe could be drilled without other modification?  Second image shows the maximum angle before the bracket starts to interfere with the casting.  The other limitation is that as the brake is applied, the top plate gets closer to the bottom plate, so the torx head only has clearance at the maximum separation.

I tried to add some props, but the camera still messes with angles so it still requires some imagination to visualize the gt bracket above the caliper.  The perspective would be looking out from the center of the rear at the passenger caliper.

As Lil' Hoss describes, clocking the brackets seems like the easiest solution with the best outcome as long as you never turn them in with your core!  I just need to get my welding skills up..






     Thread Starter
 

1/04/2015 12:17 AM  #13


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

ok, i'm totally confused now . . is the black car yours . . the mountimg position in the drawing doesn;t tell us which side of the axle it is on plus thecaliper is clocked too low.

why can't you just use the fsactory gt e brake system even though it goes under the axle?

if the master in the drawing is behind the axle, just ritsate it upward to the 11 o clock position and run the cable in a slight arc to the caliper and attach it to the bidy with a clamp or guide loop etc and you're done.

if the arm does not move more thasn around 1", you can just weld the hole and reslot it so it is slightly closer to the cable bracket.

you can also cut the csable bracket, royate the top of it forward saround 1/2" and also lower it around 1/2" then abdd a flat reinforcement plate to it, then weld and slot the moving arm so it is 1" closer than it is now anmd go over the axle.

i don't see an easy way to mount the cable with the caliper in front of the wheel with the current brackets.
.
.
 

Last edited by barnett468 (1/04/2015 12:39 AM)

 

1/04/2015 5:20 AM  #14


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

not sure if this will help i did the same conversion from mustang steve many yrs using s197 discs brake kit all round,i remember switching calipers lh to rh i used a lokar park brake conversion.


Last edited by GT350 (1/04/2015 5:21 AM)

 

1/04/2015 4:01 PM  #15


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

The black car is not mine, it was an old thread I found.  Also noted that he thought he had a better fit for the e-brake by clocking forward, but didn't have the cables on yet .. hard to imagine that working well.

Looking at late model gt pics, the calipers appear to be clocked a little higher, and the cable bends down to join the lower suspension link that attaches forward to the frame.

barnett468, thanks for the feedback.  I think you posed either modifying the bracket, or moving the cable attachment to the axle housing, which may also be relatively easy, but wonder if that would interfere with the floating calipers at all and variable length as the pads wear?

Thanks very much for the picture GT350, it looks like no problem at all!  I gathered your car is a 67, which would have an extra inch of width between the perch and the bearing.

Since this is a brand new rear-end I got worried that it was wrong.. So I mocked up the passenger side, and measured everything..

Housing width ~52.25, check.
Hub width ~57.25", check.
Perch centers, maybe inside ~43", check.
Perch center to bearing, ~4.5" both sides, check.
Discs tight to axle, check.
GT brackets snug and straight, check (axle bearing not fully seated, still 1/8" (5/32) more to go.
Can gt brackets rotate up from here, no, check.
Clocked to rear above horizontal line (~2:00 viewing out), yes, check.
Bearing lip on correct side, brackets on correct side, check.
Calipers tight to brackets, check.
Can calipers attach any other way, no, check.
No pads in, so verified pad clearance on both sides of disc to 11/16", check.
Measured new pad width, 0.685 (~11/16), check.
Level spring perch with angle finder, check.
Add vertical u-bolt tight to spring perch, check.
Look for differences with drivers side, configuration (pic 1), none, check.
Add cable and photograph from close to same angle as gt350 pic, check.
Center of straight e-brake egress is through spring perch, yep, check.

It is hard not being on the car yet, but I don't see anything that will change for the better.  This was the last of my pre-checks to catch as many surprises before it comes apart (Drivetrain transplant begins this Friday).

Conclusion, there are additional clearance issues with 65/66 GT emergency brake cables not encountered on later years.  The cable may bend to accommodate, but it is fugly.  I think the clearance GT350 shows would be acceptable if I had it.

The most elegant solution, and still maybe the easiest I see to do is what Lil' Hoss did to reclock the cable brackets, which will allow the cable to e-gress horizontally above the axle.  Could add some extra length (stock gt e-brake cables)?  Could also require something to keep it guided outside of the axle snubber?

Any other ideas, pictures?




 

     Thread Starter
 

1/04/2015 7:32 PM  #16


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

This kit is designed so the right aide caliper is mounted on the left side of the car with the caliper at 2:00 position as viewed from the driver side of the car. The cables will point straight down whether you mount them that way or if you mount the driver side caliper at 10:00 o'clock position on the driver side.  ( Calipers are stamped R or L. R goes on left side when installed as directed) They can go either way, but having the caliper behind the axle gives you more room/clearance to curve the ebrake cable.

Instructions for this installation are not assembled with a bunch of random thoughts. They are carefully planned out using the least amount of compromises to install brakes that are 40 years newer than the car they are being installed on.
The cables work fine pointing down and routed under the axle. Not optimum, but I did not design the calipers that way.

I would avoid further disassembly of the ebrake funtion. It will cause untold grief.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/04/2015 8:01 PM  #17


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

ok, well, i didn't know this was a kit from steve so it will work as he described . . as he said it is less thsan optimal but he did not design it and it will "work"

modifying the brackets is a piece of cake fro me because i do fabricating but if you are noit experienced in this area, i would not recommend you try it but it seems you would be able to determine if you want to undertake the task or not.

is easy if you know what you are doing . . it is not if you don't.

is your cable closer to the spring perch than the car pooistured above you? . . it looks like it is.
.

also. no do not mount the bracket for the outer cable to the axle housing . . i meant mount the loose cable to the frame by the front spring bolt so it does not flop around.
.

Last edited by barnett468 (1/04/2015 8:10 PM)

 

1/04/2015 10:54 PM  #18


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

It was never spelled out in any of the posts, and maybe I made a bad assumption about the source of the brackets.  I just assumed that since I am the only one offering them, that they came from me.  If you are making your own, then things may be way different.
The post by GT350 shows the calipers installed with a cable, so we know mine work.  The picture of the black car shows them installed in front, not how the kit is designed.  But they can go either way if you don't mind less-than-optimum ebrake cable routing.
If you did not rotate the bracket to the appropriate position to mount the calipers, then yes, they will not fit.  I think barnett468 hit on this and I missed something at first, mainly due to trying to answer forum questions on my phone.

Are these your own design for the brackets or one of my kits?  I really need to know that before trying to offer any useful advice. I apologize for not asking this question first.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/04/2015 11:03 PM  #19


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

Steve,

All I have done is follow the directions, exactly, no deviations, no mistakes.  I have been questioned repeatedly, so I tried every scenario to see if I could have made a mistake that I may have missed.

Your written instuctions for the GT2008 rear disc brakes only has pictures of rear cobra brakes.  The extent of the instructions related to emergency brakes only talks about which ones to buy, and how to join the cables under the tunnel, nothing about routing or potential clearance issues.

At the end of this I have learned from you that 1) it is like this because you didn't design the calipers, 2) I need steel tubing with a 90 degree bend and fabricated brackets and 3) when you talk to people you recommend against the gt rear brakes.

I think that 1) there should be some clear caveats in this product description related to the e-brakes, and 2) that if there are issues, or less than ideal clearance/routing issues with any product, that it is spelled out clearly, with some actual pictures of the best way to address any compromises, the way you would do it on your car.


I am really just getting started in this project, and I am sure this will not be the last unanticipated issue I encounter..


barnett468, yes, with the narrower axle (stock width for 65) I am at least 1" closer, it looks like more, maybe my perch is wider or the cardone castings are different, or I just have the worst case scenario.  I will decide what I am comfortable with after I see how it all fits on the car.  I am concerned where any excess cable goes when the suspension is cycled, and anchoring near the front eye-bolt sounds like a good plan.

     Thread Starter
 

1/04/2015 11:05 PM  #20


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

Mustang Steve GT2008-RLG brackets, purchased direct 11/18/14.

     Thread Starter
 

1/05/2015 4:01 AM  #21


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

.
ok, well I can tell you this if it will help and whatever you have isn’t exactly what you want to do.
 
The red caliper is exactly the same size as yours but it is a different brand
 
It looks like the cable will almost touch the spring if it was straightened . . if so obviously this is not ideal but I don’t think it will hurt.
 
The position of the cable bracket ids in the same place as the red one.
 
Your cable is a flex cable up to the end just like the red one..
 
It looks like if you cock tiy caliper in the same position as the red one which looks like 3:30 [between 3 and 4], your set up will be identical to the red one which looks “acceptable” to me.
 
If the cable is secured by the front spring mount, it will follow the leaf spring as the suspension works so there is no problem with that . . if it looks like it may flap against the side of the spring and you are worried about it, you can install some sort of additional cover on it like 5/8” tubing or tube foam.
 
You can also possibly mount a cable guide to the front outer u bolt threads . . use a oiece of 3/16” thick 1” wide flsat metal the correct length then put a 3/4” loop in it on the end . . you can buy rubber bushings in the electrical department of the hardware store to put in the center to protect the cable . . use a standard nut on the bolt because it is flat on the ends . . install a flat washer, the bracket, anither flat washer then another nut of some sort . . bend the bracket up to the height you want . . instead of making a loop you can buy a piece of 3/4" trubing and weld that on to the end for the loop . . use 1" tube instead if needed etc.

 
 
 
 

Last edited by barnett468 (1/05/2015 4:04 AM)

 

1/05/2015 6:53 PM  #22


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

OK, good info to have .  The brackets have three different sets of bolt holes.  If your rear end uses the 1/2" holes, you have the option of two different positions.  If you used the holes that tilt the calipers upward, it should fit, as this is how they were tested.  Is the rear end a custom rear end?


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/05/2015 8:55 PM  #23


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

The rear-end is custom in that it is not an oem housing, but it is supposed to be an exact replacement for a 65 mustang and pretty vanilla with respect to size/specs that I could find measurements for.

It has the large bearing and the 1/2" bolt pattern would be ~horizontal when mounted to the leaf-springs.  In the picture below from another thread I see the two patterns, but one will align the bracket exactly with the bearing housing (horizontal), and one will rotate it up (~2:00 on the drivers side).

I have the brackets rotated up, and I believe this is the only angle I can achieve other than horizontal.  I will try to get over tonight to check options, and measure for any relative angle between the bearing housing bolt pattern and the perches.


From an older thread you responded to this picture with: "Since the bolt pattern on the Versailles rear end is already tilted, there is a special set of holes for that particular rear end.  The 1/2" holes that would form a rectangle with the sides parallel to the long sides of the brackets should be used.  So, from your picture of the GT bracket, rotate is counterclockwise until the next set of holes lines up."



     Thread Starter
 

1/05/2015 10:23 PM  #24


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

I assumed that with the rotated bolt pattern on the axle that it was a Versailles. So, if not a Versailles, from that last picture it appears the bolt pattern on the axle housing was manufactured in a rotated position?   The original design puts the brackets at 25 degrees above horizontal when the hosuing bolt pattern is basically horizontal.

Looks like you can make something work, though.  Having the cable housing stop as a bracket mounted to the spring perch and a cable wire stop relocated seems like a viable option.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/05/2015 11:10 PM  #25


Re: Houstan, we have a problem (emergency brake cables with gt discs)..

yeah its odd that the pattern on the axle would be rotated unless someone asked him to make it that way . . the red caliper looks like it is mounted at 25 degrees above horizintal, so i'm guessing he has the same bracket as you but has the standard rotation on the housing . . yours will still bleed ok the way they are but your cable will be making a pretty tight bend if you try to run it as high as the red caliper cable is, however, it would not be a problem to run it 2 - 3 inches lower which is where it will be if you leave your bracket as it is and it will still curve high enough by the time it gets to the front leaf spring bolt area to clamp to the floor . . it certainly won't look super high tech like we all would prefer but it will work . . the spring perch mounted cable bracket can be made to work in both positions obviously . . this is why i suggested clocking them like the red caliper but apparently you can't unless you weld and redrill the holes in your bracket i guess.


 

Last edited by barnett468 (1/05/2015 11:17 PM)

 

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