FYI FORD - MustangSteve's Ford Mustang Forum
The Internet's Most Knowledgeable Classic Mustang Information
IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT CLASSIC FORD MUSTANGS, YOU HAVE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE!
MustangSteve has over 30 years of Mustang experience, having owned 30 of them and restored several others. With the help of other Mustangers, this site is dedicated to helping anyone wanting to restore or modify their Mustang.... THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS!!!!!
Visit MustangSteve's web site to view some of my work and find details for:
FYIFORD Contributors' PICTURES - Power Brake Retrofit Kits for 65-66 Stangs - Classic Mustang FAQ's by MustangSteve - How to wire in a Duraspark Ignition - Mustang Ride Height Pictures and Descriptions - Steel Bushings to fit Granada Spindles to Mustang Tie Rods - Visit my EBAY store MustangSteve Performance - How to Install Granada Disc Brakes MustangSteve's Disc Brake Swap Page - FYIFORD Acronyms for guide to all the acronyms used on this page - FYIFORD Important information and upcoming events

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

3/23/2017 8:57 PM  #1


66 power brake questions

Hi all, first post here.  I've tried seeking guidance on other classic mustang forums, but usually get responses like "why would you want anything but the cast iron stock MC?"

Anyway, I'm asking for general guidance on the brakes on my 66 coupe (289, auto).  Originally it had manual drum brakes all the way around with a single bowl MC.  A few years ago I bought a complete power disc setup off of a 68' coupe that a guy was parting out.  This included the whole front suspension... upper/lower arms, spindle, wheel bearings, 4-piston calipers/pads, rotors, etc. and the brake booster and dual bowl MC.  Now that I think about it, his spindles are probably different, but I'm sure you guys can answer that.

I installed this by simply unbolting my front suspension and bolting the "new" suspension in with the power disc brakes.  The MC/booster is installed with the stock 66 distribution block, stock manual drum brake pedal, and I added an adjustable prop valve.  I was only ~18 years old at the time and now that I think about it, I loosely had an idea of what I was doing.  The car stops, but not well.  The pedal travel sucks, and I feel like it isn't stopping as hard as it should be.  Just recently after doing some work (no to the brakes), the pedal went to the floor and the MC was empty, no visible leaks.

What I eventually want to do is upgrade to 13" brakes from a Cobra using the MS adapter kit, and maybe eventually do simply rear discs.  I also want a modern aluminum body/plastic bowl master cylinder like some of the ones I've seen posted on here (from later model mustangs, explorers, etc.).  

As it sits now, like I said I lost brakes while it was sitting in the garage - pedal to the floor nothing there.  Checked the MC.... empty.  No fluid leaks whatsoever on the ground.  Refilled MC and tried to bleed the brakes with a vacuum bleeder.  Was getting some pedal until I got to the front passenger side caliper, then lost everything again.  Haven't touched it since.  Also when pumping the brake pedal to build pressure, it seems that the cast iron MC is leaking past it's seal.  Yes the seal is in place and the MC (this is the 3rd one) is relatively new.

Can anyone point me in the right direction?  Sorry for the long post!

 

3/23/2017 9:45 PM  #2


Re: 66 power brake questions

I want to say that your first mistake was probably assuming that everything was in good running order when you purchased it. Without bench testing, or at least a partial tear-down to inspect for leaks, wear or other problems, you are taking a big chance. There may have been a good reason why the PO was parting it out!
Without a physical inspection, I don't believe anyone is going to be able to tell you where your fluid is going. No puddles? What kind of vacuum are you pulling at the manifold? Are the rotors glazed? Are the pads oil soaked and need to be replaced? There are so many possible causes for the poor braking.
A little more information on the inspection and installation procedures you followed during your retrofit would be helpful along with some information on your plumbing.


'66 GT Fastback, 302, Edelbrock top end, Sniper EFI, MSD, JBA Headers & Exhaust, T-5Z, Currie 3.55 Trac-Loc
 

3/23/2017 11:43 PM  #3


Re: 66 power brake questions

Welcome to the forum McGinley! My guess is your brake fluid is leaking into your master cylinder.  Did you swap the control arms from the 68 onto your 66? If so, I don't believe they interchange.

Bob


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

3/24/2017 8:14 AM  #4


Re: 66 power brake questions

First:  Welcome to the best place on the web.  I hope it's a place you want to visit often.

​Your brakes:  You need to change the pedal to have the proper PB ratio.  Using a MB pedal on PB will normally create hyper-sensitive brakes.  Since yours did not, I have to think that the booster isn't doing anyting...at least nothing good.  You can get the parts to convert your pedal to PB from the MS website for very few $$.  If you can well, or know a good welder, this is a simple conversion.  For my money, I'd also convert the pedal support to use the Fox 4-Cyl booster.  Again, the parts/instructions come from the MS website. 
​I have no knowledge about the 68 suspension parts but would not be surprised if the spindles are not recommended for use on a 66 due to "bump-steer" problems.  Other smarter folks will have to chime in.

I would also recommend that you, at the least, buy new (or rebuilt) calipers.  As rhutt says, messing with unknown brake parts is pretty risky.

​You can leave the rear drum brakes and do just fine.  Lots of cars are still being built as disc/drum and the system works well.  70% of the braking is done up front anyway.  Just make sure the rears, and the fronts, are in good order and working properly.

​Fluid loss:  It has to be going someplace...maybe into the booster.  Or, you may find a "starburst" of fluid on one or more tires which would indicate a leak at the caliper of wheel cyl.

​Bleeding:  New MC MUST be properly bench bled before installation.  Calipers MUST be installed with the bleeder at the highest point.  You'd be surprised how many calipers get installed on the wrong side and the bleeders end up below the top of the fluid.

​Good luck, you'll get it, just don't give up.  And come to the Bash, with or without your Mustang.  You'll be glad you did.

​BB
 


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

3/24/2017 4:31 PM  #5


Re: 66 power brake questions

Welcome to the forum. Coming here for advice was the best move you could have made. I can't offer any advice on the 68 suspension parts but I can tell you what has worked well for me on my 66, 289 T5. The Mustang Steve power brake pedal ratio kit, pedal bearing kit, GT front disc bracket kit. I used a 4 cyl fox body booster and a 92 Ranger mc with an adjustable prop valve on the rear. I didn't use a distribution block. I simply T'd the front lines. I used braided lines from Jegs on the front calipers. Drums out back.  Use a 70 mustang power brake light switch or a pressure actuated switch. Read Steves tutorial on bedding your brakes. Use new or quality rebuilt parts and you'll be good to go.


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
 

3/25/2017 9:18 PM  #6


Re: 66 power brake questions

Did you install the booster on your car?  Pics would help. The stock 68 booster won't bolt up, so I am wondering what exactly you have.
Let's get more details and I will help you make them right.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

3/26/2017 12:50 PM  #7


Re: 66 power brake questions

Thanks for all the responses guys, I wish I had found this forum years ago!

I took some pictures of the braking system as it sits now.  I was pretty sure the guy had a 68 mustang, but I guess he didn't if the suspension components fit my 66.  I just remember he had a 302 in it and he was parting it out because of excessive body/frame rust.  While I understand that the MC could have been the problem originally, I've replaced it twice now and bench bled it both times until no more bubbles came out.  For years it had OK brakes, just never what I would consider adequate braking. 

As for when it lost fluid, I'm telling you there were zero external leaks. I pulled the car in the garage for a few months to do work and had it sitting completely on jack stands.  I didn't touch the braking system at all during this time, but when I lowered it back down a few months later it had no brakes, pedal to the floor, no pressure, empty MC.  Could there have been that much air in the system that it self-bled?  But that doesn't explain why when I went to refill it and bleed them I lost pressure again.

I'll post the pictures in the next post, forum rules won't let me until I've made 2 posts haha
 

     Thread Starter
 

3/26/2017 1:09 PM  #8


Re: 66 power brake questions

I've been trying to post pictures for 10 minutes now, I keep getting messages saying:


  • To help control spam, please complete the verification image to complete this posting.
  • To help control spam, please complete a verification image to complete this posting. This step will only be required until you have made 10 postings.


So then I do the captcha verification image thing below it, it checks that I'm not a robot, and then I still get another fail message saying the image couldn't be verified. I swear this isn't my first forum rodeo

     Thread Starter
 

3/26/2017 1:19 PM  #9


Re: 66 power brake questions

t.mcginley.jr wrote:

I've been trying to post pictures for 10 minutes now, I keep getting messages saying:


  • To help control spam, please complete the verification image to complete this posting.
  • To help control spam, please complete a verification image to complete this posting. This step will only be required until you have made 10 postings.


So then I do the captcha verification image thing below it, it checks that I'm not a robot, and then I still get another fail message saying the image couldn't be verified. I swear this isn't my first forum rodeo

 
If you have a smart phone download the photo bucket app. I've found the app to be the easiest way to post pics on this site as well as others. They problem I have with using the pic poster on here is my resolution is to big to let the pics upload, instead of going through the trouble of down sizing my pictures I use that app.

 

3/27/2017 10:19 AM  #10


Re: 66 power brake questions

I've tried repeatedly to post pictures but it's not working, but here's a link to the photobucket album with my pics of my setup:

http://s962.photobucket.com/user/tmcginleyjr/slideshow/Mustang%20brakes

I took pictures of the front suspension, brakes, booster, MC, and how I have the lines routed.  Large bowl goes to thte brass T fitting and then to each front caliper.  Smaller bowl goes to the adjustable prop valve and then to the rear.  In the one picture I tried to take a picture of the spindle so that maybe we could identify which year this is from.  

Last edited by t.mcginley.jr (3/27/2017 10:22 AM)

     Thread Starter
 

3/27/2017 10:58 AM  #11


Re: 66 power brake questions

Those disc brakes are not from a 68 Mustang. 65-67 have the four piston calipers.

 

3/27/2017 7:42 PM  #12


Re: 66 power brake questions

Those are 65-67 Kelsey Hayes discs.  They are good brakes, but they can have issues.  The first issue is they have four pistons.  Over time, one piston will seize up, then another, and then another until they only have one piston moving.  They do not brake very well when that happens!  You will need to make sure all the pistons are not seized.

Second issue is that power booster.  They typically do not work very well, but may provide "some" pedal pushing assistance.  They do not change the pedal ratio like a good system would do.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

3/28/2017 9:54 PM  #13


Re: 66 power brake questions

Thanks for the info guys.  I think my first step will be to remove the calipers and see if any of the pistons are frozen and address that issue first.

As for the booster, what would you guys recommend as a replacement?  One from a fox body 4cyl mustang like BillyC recommended?  If so which master cylinder to go with?  And at that point should I also swap in a power brake pedal or can I somehow mod my manual pedal?

sorry for so many questions! 

Last edited by t.mcginley.jr (4/04/2017 9:57 PM)

     Thread Starter
 

3/29/2017 8:03 AM  #14


Re: 66 power brake questions

Everything you could possibly want & need....

http://www.mustangsteve.com/BRAKES.html
 

 

4/04/2017 11:51 AM  #15


Re: 66 power brake questions

Hi all, I've looked over all the info and for now I think I'm going to upgrade to the fox body 4-cyl booster and 2000 mustang v6 master cylinder and rebuild my current calipers.  I'm going to buy the PB-2 kit and weld the support/pin myself.

For the booster, does this look like the correct one?
http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae101/tmcginleyjr/Mustang%20brakes/5474000-LEF.jpg

 

     Thread Starter
 

4/04/2017 6:19 PM  #16


Re: 66 power brake questions

t.mcginley.jr wrote:

Hi all, I've looked over all the info and for now I think I'm going to upgrade to the fox body 4-cyl booster and 2000 mustang v6 master cylinder and rebuild my current calipers.  I'm going to buy the PB-2 kit and weld the support/pin myself.

For the booster, does this look like the correct one?
http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/ae101/tmcginleyjr/Mustang%20brakes/5474000-LEF.jpg

 

 
That looks like it. I believe mine is from an 89 fox body 4 cylinder.


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
 

4/04/2017 6:24 PM  #17


Re: 66 power brake questions

Thanks Billy, the one I linked is also from an 89 4-cylinder

Some of the pictures I see show similar ones but they are fatter whereas this one is skinny by comparison.  Want to make sure I have the right parts lined up before I purchase.

     Thread Starter
 

4/04/2017 7:34 PM  #18


Re: 66 power brake questions

There are three different versions of the booster, all serviced as rebuilt under Cardone part number 54-74000, or brand new from MustangSteve.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

4/05/2017 6:33 PM  #19


Re: 66 power brake questions

Just pulled my calipers and master cylinder off.  Master cylinder was leaking out of the back seal, I didn't see anything really leaking on the ground so either it lost it all while on the road or its currently inside the booster?

As for the calipers, I used compressed air to get the pistons out.  The drivers side one had 1 frozen piston and the passenger side had 3 frozen pistons! I increased the compressed air from 25 psi... to 50 psi... to 100 psi (obviously with clamps and wood in the way in case they actually moved.  But nothing short of channel locks would get them unfrozen.  Seals were still rubbery but they just seemed stuck in the bores.

For the MC, are there any Ford ones set up for disc/drum with 1" bore besides the 92 ranger one?  I'm trying to avoid the silly slanted reservoir without having to purchase another $20 reservoir off a mustang or something.  If not no big deal.

     Thread Starter
 

4/05/2017 8:04 PM  #20


Re: 66 power brake questions

t.mcginley.jr wrote:

For the MC, are there any Ford ones set up for disc/drum with 1" bore besides the 92 ranger one?  I'm trying to avoid the silly slanted reservoir without having to purchase another $20 reservoir off a mustang or something.  If not no big deal.

When I had rear drums I used a 67 Disc/Drum with left ports.  Worked great with a new Fox combination valve.  Got the MC from MS but they may be available elsewhere.  Went local for the Combi valve...pricey, about $100 new but worked well on our coupe and my added on brake trouble light worked as it should.

​BB


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

Board footera


REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on.