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4/20/2017 10:53 AM  #1


1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Hi all, time for spring project number 3858683920200696493

as  recap I have a 69 FB, 351W Moded with a T5 Super Duty, 3.73 Rear Diff and last spring did the GT-NADA Disc Swap
I also had The 1" full suspension drop kits which Destroy handling and control......After years of battling I had learned those 1" front and rear spring kits are the culprit to my Squirrely handling during accell/Decell and tremendous bump steer.

I purchased the Shelby/Arning Drop Template and will tackle this project soon BUT!......

this is where you come in:  I Need To Raise My Springs 1" now (incredibly counter productive) but it must be done......Are there POLY EURO insulators that can do this???? 
Does Anyone recommend any Other Way???

also, does control arm metal get tired and weak over time? Do You Think I should change the entire Upper/Lower Arms or simply replace Bushing/Rod along with Ball Joints if needed?

Thank You,
Jeff
 

 

4/20/2017 9:15 PM  #2


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Your original UCA is stronger metal than anyreproduction UCA.
REBUILD IS EASY. I used to have an FAQ article on how to do it properly, but it somehow got deleted. Maybe I will redo and add it to the TIPS section of this forum.

A properly rebuilt UCA will be easy to rotate the shaft by hand. Improperly rebuilt, the shaft will be difficult to turn by hand.  The bushings must be tack welded to the UCA to accomplish this.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

4/21/2017 6:44 AM  #3


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Thank You MS,

this is what I needed to hear.  I have no quarrel placing the extra work and time refinishing the OLD METAL, as long as I know it is still strong after 60yrs.

I will rebuild them entirely, which will be relative in cost, just a longer process.  Worth it!

I guess last question is this:
as far as photos go when purchasing the bushing and shafts for the Upper, there seems to be 2 types.  I push in bushing and a threaded one.......Are they interchangeable?  or does the threaded style require tapping the OEM Upper which uses the Press In?

     Thread Starter
 

4/21/2017 4:17 PM  #4


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Hello? Any info on how to raise my 1" lowering spring?

Is there a poly insulator?
Should i place a spacer under the perch?

     Thread Starter
 

4/21/2017 4:46 PM  #5


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

M1Mustang69 wrote:

Hello? Any info on how to raise my 1" lowering spring?

Is there a poly insulator?
Should i place a spacer under the perch?

Most parts stores sell twist in spacers that go between the coils, 2 in each coil,opposing each other..they work .....jj

Last edited by jerseyjoe (4/21/2017 4:48 PM)


"Never put a question mark where God put a period "  Richard Petty
 

4/21/2017 7:49 PM  #6


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Mustangs Plus sells poly spacers for that purpose


Cut to fit, Pound to shape, Paint to match
 

4/24/2017 7:03 AM  #7


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

M1, what alignment specs were used after you did the suspension work? 1" lowering alone shouldn't ruin the handling. Original alignment settings will not work with radial tires and upgraded components.

 

4/25/2017 9:46 AM  #8


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Hi WHLNUT

I had the vehicle aligned twice by people who claimed to be familiar with these old cars and stuff....claimed to be savvy with and knowledgeable....I had said specifically this last time "please do not focus on factory spec, but try to make the car stay straight!  I do not Car about uneven tire wear, just make the car stay straight!"

I paid $100 and he said thats all he could do, car is all over the road.

in closing, I do not know the specs, there was a print out I may still have but I can say with confidence its close to factory spec

     Thread Starter
 

4/25/2017 10:46 AM  #9


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

You have to verify proper alignment before making any changes. A member here has his own site that will give you more info. 
http://dazecars.com/dazed/bump.html
Go down to "performance alignment" for the specs needed for your alignment. Without specific instruction, alignment shops have to rely on stock specs, which will not work.
Find the print out and post the caster, camber and toe.

 

4/25/2017 9:28 PM  #10


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Hi, maybe I can help a little bit. First off I'm not a suspension expert, I don't race but I do understand angles from electrical work. A couple years ago I did some pretty heavy duty mods on my 66. I was able to get myself out of what ever i got myself into. First off you need to verify your components are in good shape. Before I started with my car it was so bad I literally could not drive next to someone.

Unbolt the lower control arm and inspect the bushings. They take a beating, if they're bad the alignment is going to be all over the place. The camber, caster and toe is going to be all over. Same goes with the strut bushings. These set caster, if they're bad the caster is going to be changing all the time especially under braking. Stock alignment settings are not good for today's driving and radial tires.

The toe characteristics are toe out for compression and toe in when it extends. At stock ride height for argument sake, let's say the suspension travel is right in the middle. As it varies it may be a lot from one extreme to the other but at the limit either way it's not too far off from normal so you really don't notice too much. Once the car is lowered, you biased your suspension to more travel or extension then it does from compression. So you're going to have a lot more toe in then at stock ride height. That's a problem I believe. the other problem I noticed on my car with my Baer bumpsteer kit was under full extension or approaching it, there was more travel in the suspension then the rod end had and the rod end bound up causing the tires to toe in and camber to go positive. It could have been because of the travel of the rod end. I wonder if the same thing happens with a stock tie rod but I'm wondering if the boot obscures it?

The basic theory is you want the tie rod assembly parallel to the lower control arm and pivoting at the same spots so everything works like a parallelogram so it won't steer aka bump steer through travel. The next best thing is to have the arc of the tie rod assembly close enough in it's arc that it doesn't adversely effect steering, When you add a bump steer kit you lower the outer tie rod and in order to keep toe correct the tie rod assembly must be lengthened which make the arc more gradual and reduce bump steer. Adding caster has a similar effect because you're tilting the spindle back which lowers the outer tie rod closer to the road which again means you have to lengthen the tie rod assembly and making the arc more gradual. While working on my 66 I was thinking about this and wondered if I decreased my toe in would help since this would reduce toe in under extension. then I read on this site about doing exactly that on 665/66 cars with Granada spindles

Recapping I would suggest checking everything for wear, add caster and see if this helps as well as experiment with toe. Unfortunately when you make one change on these cars it effects something else. and no magic bullet to fix it completely. Your best bet is to understand how it all works and get involved. I never did anything like this before or even did alignments but now I do my own alignments and this is a huge help in making it drive right.

I don't know how far you want to get involved or spend but things like adjustable struts with rod ends to replace the rubber biscuits and a lower arm with a mono bearing or rod end instead of a rubber bushing will make a huge improvement in driving since you've gotten rid of a lot of slop. They work consistently and predictably time after time. Rubber bushing do not. My car now goes dead straight, no wandering, no darting even if I hit the brakes with no hands on the wheel. I run 4 degrees of positive caster and a little over 1 degree negative camber, mostly for tire clearance due to the back spacing on my TTD's.
 


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

4/26/2017 8:13 AM  #11


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Thanks Whinut and Husk, Much appreciated....

I had brought those specs to the the alignment guy who says hes familiar (gentleman in his late 40's early 50's) and he claims he got them as close to that as possible....but I truly dont believe him! 

as for my parts, I had my entire suspension replaced 5yrs ago...Springs, shocks, perches....No one since then or as of late doing alignments has said I have bad ball joints or looseness anywhere, but this is why I am doing what I am doing now....Going to replace all my Ball Joints and Bushings ANYWAY.....eliminate the possibility. 

I also figure while Im at it, Do the SHelby/Arning Drop to also further eliminate the possibility......had I known that was an option 5yrs ago I would have not purchased the Lowering springs at all.....

final question, it turns out My upper arms have the 3-BOLT triangle shaped ball joints.....now I have noticed 2 designs with those to boot (annoying).  one is a perfect triangle like shape and the other has the bolts in triangle formation but near the point theres 2 rounded cut outs.......Does This Matter or have specific applications???


     Thread Starter
 

4/26/2017 9:53 AM  #12


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

M1, your problem still sounds like alignment issues to me. I would check all your components before changing anything. The Arning drop is a good idea.

 

4/26/2017 2:02 PM  #13


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

I agree, check alignment first. I went into length on the other issues as a reference if you need to get farther into this. I'm not as familiar with the 67 & later as the 65/66. The 67 & later does have improvements over the 65/66 cars. I know with the 65/66 from my digging seems to be limited between caster and camber and that the "Shelby" specs are really nothing special but that limit. You could probably do a quicky alignment to get to the shop. Fold some of those heavy duty 3 mil black plastic contractors garbage bags under the front tires. This allows the tires to slip and unload the suspension. With the wheels straight but a regular level on the flat part of the hub or off the rim itself if it's a machined aluminum wheel and adjust the eccentrics to read zero. Then turn the drivers wheel all the way to the left and with the level, read how far off from plumb. Don't worry about not being plumb. You're reading caster. it's not the correct way but you will be reading caster. Note exactly where the bubble is. Mark it somehow with a marker or masking tape. Then do the same for the right side. Turn the wheels to the right, the same amount as you did to the left. Read the level the same way. You can adjust the strut to get the caster the same. You won't know what the caster is other then you will have some caster and it will be equal. Then adjust toe. FYI, the shop manual is a great resource in doing this and making adjustments. It's a great experience.

Again, I'm not an expert on this stuff but I have spent a lot of time on it with my car. It's an accumulation of what I have done and 20/20 hind sight. I did a thread on DIY home alignment but I can't link it yet, need to post more.


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

4/26/2017 3:20 PM  #14


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Ditto on the Alignment!  Caster, Caster, Caster!  A number of years back I took my '65 to an alignment shop because my car handled like a bag full of jello.  Of course every thing was worn out.  That was my problem.  I drove the car out of the shop with an $800 bill and a whole undercarriage full of shiney new parts.  It did not handle a dimes worth of difference.  It wasn't til near 20 years that I ran into a real old timer.  Along with the Arning drop, I came away with a whole bunch of CASTER!

 

4/26/2017 3:38 PM  #15


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Huskinhano wrote:

I did a thread on DIY home alignment but I can't link it yet, need to post more.

Welcome Huskinhano!
Once you have enough posts please share the link to your DIY home alignment.  I'd love to learn how.

 

4/26/2017 4:08 PM  #16


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Michael H. wrote:

Huskinhano wrote:

I did a thread on DIY home alignment but I can't link it yet, need to post more.

Welcome Huskinhano!
Once you have enough posts please share the link to your DIY home alignment.  I'd love to learn how.

Thanks! The hardest thing about doing your own alignment is to get your butt in the garage. After doing it I wondered why more people don't. It seems like it's some sort of black art that you have to belong to a secret society to do. I had just finished installing Street or Track upper arms and adjustable struts. I was going to send it out to a shop for alignment. I've read enough horror stories of guys getting it done at a shop and have the shims fall out on the drive home. Don't laugh. Or guys supplying the specs and the shop just totally ignoring it. And you can imagine how much time someone is going to spend on your car when they have 6 more to do after yours. Oh, what about the guys who have only worked on McPherson strut where you're basically setting toe. I had thoughts of either the shop flat out refusing to do the work because it's a "racing" part or not having a clue what to do and totally screwing it up. I thought to my self if I just did this work, why can't I do a alignment? Boy, I'm so glad I did! I discovered there was a problem with my lower control arm bushings. If I didn't, I would have never known and the car may have driven better but it wouldn't be anywhere it is now.

Here's the lower bushings in my car. This was hidden from view and why I say pull them and check. My car was literally all over the road





Here's my POS this month at a charity event at Watkins Glen. 3 paced laps at 55 mph for $25. I was with 2 other guys in 66's. Both were behind me and both said we hit 90 at times. yes it was fun!





My car is powered by a 97 GT40P with a Mustang 5.0 cam, Crane 1.72 rockers and Wieand Stealth. All cheap used parts.


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

4/26/2017 4:32 PM  #17


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Hey Boweeee!!!!! Were's your helmet?!!!!!! J/K!
Welcome to the best forum on da web!
6sally6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

4/26/2017 4:47 PM  #18


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

6sally6 wrote:

Hey Boweeee!!!!! Were's your helmet?!!!!!! J/K!
Welcome to the best forum on da web!
6sally6

Don't need no stinkin helmutt. My head is hard enough
 


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

4/26/2017 5:01 PM  #19


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Michael H. wrote:

Huskinhano wrote:

I did a thread on DIY home alignment but I can't link it yet, need to post more.

Welcome Huskinhano!
Once you have enough posts please share the link to your DIY home alignment.  I'd love to learn how.

I also want to read what you have to share about DIY home alignment.  I'd like to tear into my front end but I don't want to rely on an alignment shop that probably doesn't see these old cars.
 


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

4/26/2017 6:25 PM  #20


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

I am lucky in the fact that I worked part time at a frame and alignment shop years ago and have known the owner for close to 20 years. I called him up and told him what I was doing, what specs I wanted, and he told me to bring them with me and he would make sure it is exactly where I want it set.

 

4/26/2017 6:49 PM  #21


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

^^^^^^^^^^^
You can say that again!!

Seriously.....best alignment I ever got was in Pryor Okla.
Coming back from Tulsa the local Poop boys screwed up my front end so bad.......I had to stop there on the way back home. I was the "typical guy just pass'in thru town"......They could really crucified me and what was I gonna do?!
Did an excellent job at a price way cheaper than I could have paid  in Charleston!
I just hate to drive BACK to Pryor....if I ever need another alignment!
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

4/26/2017 6:54 PM  #22


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

6sal6, I forget where again are you in SC?


I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
 

4/26/2017 10:47 PM  #23


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Do the Arning drop (Shelby Drop) and use the "performance alignment" specs in Daze's article. It will work wonders on your handling characteristics. Check this site for great information: http://dazecars.com/dazed/drop.html 


68 coupe - 351W, 4R70W, 9" 3.25 -- 65 convertible - 289 4v, C4, 8" 3.00
 

4/27/2017 7:18 PM  #24


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

6sally6 wrote:

^^^^^^^^^^^
You can say that again!!

Seriously.....best alignment I ever got was in Pryor Okla.
Coming back from Tulsa the local Poop boys screwed up my front end so bad.......I had to stop there on the way back home. I was the "typical guy just pass'in thru town"......They could really crucified me and what was I gonna do?!
Did an excellent job at a price way cheaper than I could have paid  in Charleston!
I just hate to drive BACK to Pryor....if I ever need another alignment!
6sal6

Sorry double post LOL! deleted the second.

 

4/27/2017 8:26 PM  #25


Re: 1969 Mustang Front Suspension, SQUIRRELY ON THE ROAD...SHELBY/ARNING

Huskinhano wrote:

6sal6, I forget where again are you in SC?

Surfside Beach


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

Board footera


REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on.