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8/26/2021 3:43 PM  #1


Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

overheating issues!!!
My car had overheating issues when I first finished the restoration.  I found a cure in a new aluminum radiator from Virginia Mustang.  For several years I enjoyed absolutely no issues with my car overheating.  A couple years ago I had this idea to add air conditioning to my car.  I installed a vintage air system in the car and love the cool air blowing in my face!!  BUT with the added condenser can less air flow, with less airflow came overheating AGAIN,  I've tried a couple different fans  both mechanical and electric.  I know the issue is airflow because at highway speeds the car cools down.  Thru the advice of this Forum I am going to by a 24" radiator and cut the support and install it and a flex fan and clutch.  I have picked out an ACP radiator and accs to use and am attaching a copy of such


One thing I havent quite figured is actually cutting the radiator support.  A  cutoff wheel would certainly be the fastest but containing the sparks on a painted car concerns me.  I'll probably end up using a sawzall and metal blade while using painters tape to mark the line.  anyone else have any ideas??

I was talking to a customer of mine  and the topic came up, he used to build and run stock cars and he said they used to put a flow restrictor in the outlet radiator hose with the idea being to slow the flow of water keeping it in the radiator longer.  I've never heard this mentioned before?????

We also discussed double pass radiators.  Are any of the stock type radiators double pass???

 

8/26/2021 4:07 PM  #2


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

Racing is a very different application.  Those cars are turning maximum RPM all the time.  Its common to run a huge water pump pulley on them to slow down the pump speed to avoid cavitation.  That's a big key to the next point of discussion.

So long as the water pump isn't cavitating, the idea that water needs to be in the radiator longer was completely disproved on another thread on here maybe a year or two back.  Maximum thermal transfer occurs between temperature extremes, so the hotter the water and cooler the radiator the greater the transfer that occurs.  By the time the water has moved from the radiator inlet to the outlet, keeping in mind the radiator itself is a reasonably large flow restriction, that maximum transfer has occurred.  The longer the water sits in the radiator the cooler it becomes and the heat transfer goes down very quickly.  Like most myths this one seems to have had a grain of truth that dates back to the first cars.  It doesn't apply to cars using pressurized cooling systems.  Basically its along the same lines as the idea that you can't put a battery on a concrete floor.  True 100 years ago, but total bunk today. 

Air body saw would be my choice for the cutting.  Harbor Freight has them cheap.  A sawzall is probably going to be too unwieldly.  A jigsaw would work well, but if you can't keep the foot of the saw on something flat that's also going to jump around a lot. 

 

8/26/2021 4:23 PM  #3


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

Don't get the 67-70 lower brackets. They don’t really work well on the 65-66.   You will wind up doing more mods to them to get them to fit than if you just build your own.  A simple u-shaped piece of steel welded to the frame will allow the lower rubber mounts to work.

Everything else is right, though.

Be advised, you will have to revise your condenser plumbing and relocate voltage regulator.

I use a 4-1/2” cutoff wheel, 1/16” thick to cut the core support.  Makes nice straight lines. Cut it 1/8” away from the line and grind to final dimension.

A 4-1/2” 80 grit flapper wheel works great to smooth out the freshly cut core support.

The whole cut/finish operation won't take 20 minutes using those tools.

If you are really concerned about the overheating, you will likely find that the problem is in your block or within something other than your radiator.  But the bigger one will definitely help the situation.

Last edited by MS (8/26/2021 4:27 PM)


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

8/26/2021 4:58 PM  #4


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

MS wrote:

If you are really concerned about the overheating, you will likely find that the problem is in your block or within something other than your radiator. But the bigger one will definitely help the situation.

Well MS I guess you'll have to explain that!!  I had my over heating issues resolved until I added A/C
 

     Thread Starter
 

8/26/2021 5:08 PM  #5


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

I’m still using the stock 289 sized radiator from Summit Racing.

Aluminum, 2 row, 1” tubes
190 thermostat
Summit 14” electric fan (1585 cfm)
Classic Auto Air daily driver a/c…
condenser covers entire radiator 18” wide x 16” tall

No overheating issues.
Used same radiator with 289, with 180 and 190 thermostat.
No a/c with 289 setup though.

Last edited by Nos681 (8/26/2021 5:11 PM)

 

8/26/2021 5:23 PM  #6


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

A good way to relocate the voltage regulator is by installing a 3G alternator.  The voltage regulator can be relocated to the shelf above the workbench.


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

8/26/2021 5:29 PM  #7


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

Dan
Im running a 2 row aluminum radiator as well.   I may try a different flex fan and shroud again before going thru all the hassle of enlarging my support.  I hadnt thought about having to re do my a/c lines!!
Like I said at highway speeds this radiator cools so I know the capacity is there I'm just not getting the airflow I need to cool.  I bought the highest CFM electric  fan (3500)  I could find but it still isnt adequate

     Thread Starter
 

8/26/2021 5:45 PM  #8


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

Before dropping the $$$cash.......
try flushing/boiling-out/rodding out/cleaning your block and old radiator. See if that makes a diff.......try a higher press. radiator cap......(I KNOW you have a fan shroud!!) make sure its in the optimum position....do you have the rubber seal across the top of your radiator support? This seals the front of the support to force all incoming air through the radiator.
All this stuff is cheap and needs to be done EVEN with a new radiator.
Worth a try!!
6sal6
Drape some cloth around the area UR planning to run the grinder to contain the sparks. Lay out the cut line with blue painters tape ....cut through the tape. This will help limit sparklers (and the tape color is close to Ford Blue)
Unless you just grind and cut for a long time consantrating ALL the sparks on a painted surface...your not gonna do any damage to your finish. (That paint  can resist gravel/bugs/mud/all kindsa stuff...it's hard)


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

8/26/2021 6:31 PM  #9


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

Are you using  standard rotation or reverse rotation water pump accessory drive?

 

8/26/2021 6:35 PM  #10


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

I bought a replacement support for my convertible.  I wasn't planning on doing the 24" conversion, but converting to the bigger 67 radiator.  I had a further advantage of making my cuts on a table. 

I used different air tools like a cut off wheel, an air file, a sheet metal nibbler on the contours, and a belt sander. And an electric mini sawzall.  Hf calls it a body saw.

Doing it on a car with things to work around and worry about, I think that electric mini saw would work wonders for you and a nibbler would definitely be your friend.  Finish it off with a belt sander. 

Edit:  thinking the flap disc idea would be best idea to finish it off.  I didn't have one of those back then. Those things rock!

Last edited by Greg B (8/26/2021 6:44 PM)


If multiple things can go wrong, the one that will go wrong will be the one that causes the most damage.
 

8/26/2021 8:16 PM  #11


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

6sally6 wrote:

Before dropping the $$$cash.......
try flushing/boiling-out/rodding out/cleaning your block and old radiator. See if that makes a diff.......try a higher press. radiator cap......(I KNOW you have a fan shroud!!) make sure its in the optimum position....do you have the rubber seal across the top of your radiator support? This seals the front of the support to force all incoming air through the radiator.
All this stuff is cheap and needs to be done EVEN with a new radiator.
Worth a try!!
6sal6 That paint can resist gravel/bugs/mud/all kindsa stuff...it's hard)

Sal if it was in the block wouldnt it over heat at all times??? I'm running an electric fan!   Mine overheats at lower speeds.  At highway speeds it cools down.  This tells me the radiator is sufficient its an air flow issue?????  AM I wrong???
As far as the paint handling bugs and gravel and being tough, that metal is hot and melts into the paint, ever heard of rail dust? 
 

     Thread Starter
 

8/26/2021 9:01 PM  #12


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

No one mentioned it, but in your first post you said you were going to try a flex fan and a clutch.  I think with a clutch you want a multi-blade fixed fan.  I don't think a flex fan is used with a thermal clutch.


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

8/27/2021 5:09 AM  #13


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

One thing we never actually noted in our efforts to solve your problem is what exactly is overheating to you?  Describe exactly what its doing.  Does the temperature rise to the point where it boils over or you have to stop?  What temperature is it reaching?  Often we've seen people call something overheating when really what its doing is just running hotter than they'd like or think its supposed to, but those limits are often arbitrary and not based on anything that should actually be concerning.  For example, an engine running at a steady 220 degrees isn't overheating.  A typical radiator cap and a 50/50 mix coolant would have to hit 250 to be overheating.  Engaging the AC is going to increase the coolant temp by 10-15 degrees.  Again, that's normal and isn't an issue unless the temperature starts to run away and boil over. 

 

8/27/2021 5:42 AM  #14


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

You have a valid point, My car has a recovery tank so it doesnt boil over to the point of spewing on the ground.  Ive seen it getting around 220 to 230.  Before adding the a/c it hardly ever got over 200.  
At what point does it start causing damage???
Not sure what the rating is on my cap, im assuming around 14#  its a stant.  I do know that water under pressure boils at a higher rate.  Something to the tune of 3 degrees per pound of pressure.  A quick search found this chart.

     Thread Starter
 

8/27/2021 5:57 AM  #15


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

terry wrote:

6sally6 wrote:

Before dropping the $$$cash.......
try flushing/boiling-out/rodding out/cleaning your block and old radiator. See if that makes a diff.......try a higher press. radiator cap......(I KNOW you have a fan shroud!!) make sure its in the optimum position....do you have the rubber seal across the top of your radiator support? This seals the front of the support to force all incoming air through the radiator.
All this stuff is cheap and needs to be done EVEN with a new radiator.
Worth a try!!
6sal6 That paint can resist gravel/bugs/mud/all kindsa stuff...it's hard)

Sal if it was in the block wouldnt it over heat at all times??? I'm running an electric fan!   Mine overheats at lower speeds.  At highway speeds it cools down.  This tells me the radiator is sufficient its an air flow issue?????  AM I wrong???
As far as the paint handling bugs and gravel and being tough, that metal is hot and melts into the paint, ever heard of rail dust? 
 

 
Have you verified electric fan and the fan blade are rotating in correct direction?
Gotta ask.

BTW, I have run a 16# cap for over 25 years even with copper brass radiator (3 row).

Last edited by Nos681 (8/27/2021 6:00 AM)

 

8/27/2021 6:25 AM  #16


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

One thing I did not see you mention is that you have a shroud around that fan. (Oh, now I see that you have an electric fan...maybe better, maybe worser).  I have the same Virginia Classic radiator with a seven blade fixed fan from the 89 TC donor and a thermal clutch.  I made a shroud that forces all air to come THROUGH the radiator.  Only time I have seen the Heap go over 200 was in Vegas, idling on the I15 at nearly 120 ambiant...it went to about 220.
I'm with Mike about making sure the block is clean and making sure the fan is moving ALL the air THROUGH the radiator and not around it.  I really believe, like you, that the problem is poor air flow at low speed.  Most electric fans that I've seen force a lot of air through a section of the radiator but not necessarily the WHOLE radiator.  A 17" seven blade fan with clutch and proper shroud will draw across the entire surface of the radiator.  JMO.

BB
 

Last edited by Bullet Bob (8/27/2021 6:26 AM)


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

8/27/2021 6:25 AM  #17


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

Dan, yes the fan is sucking air thru the radiator

     Thread Starter
 

8/27/2021 7:48 AM  #18


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

No offense, but have to ask this too.

Is the blade marked with direction of rotation?

Even correct direction with blade flipped will still pull air through radiator…just not as efficiently.

 

8/27/2021 8:19 AM  #19


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

terry wrote:

6sally6 wrote:

Before dropping the $$$cash.......
try flushing/boiling-out/rodding out/cleaning your block and old radiator. See if that makes a diff.......try a higher press. radiator cap......(I KNOW you have a fan shroud!!) make sure its in the optimum position....do you have the rubber seal across the top of your radiator support? This seals the front of the support to force all incoming air through the radiator.
All this stuff is cheap and needs to be done EVEN with a new radiator.
Worth a try!!
6sal6 That paint can resist gravel/bugs/mud/all kindsa stuff...it's hard)

Sal if it was in the block wouldnt it over heat at all times??? I'm running an electric fan!   Mine overheats at lower speeds.  At highway speeds it cools down.  This tells me the radiator is sufficient its an air flow issue?????  AM I wrong???
As far as the paint handling bugs and gravel and being tough, that metal is hot and melts into the paint, ever heard of rail dust? 
 

Yeah-butt.....!!
I KNOW you would totally cover the area to be worked around and I believe that would give plenty of protection.......
Flushing the engine's coolant system should be done even if...you install a new radiator.  I was just thinking the block might have "just enough stuff in it" that the added strain of an AC condenser may have pushed-it-over-the-top as far as being able to keep up with the cooling. ( IF this is the case then a bigger radiator is the next....'logical step'.(Do I sound like a Vulcan?!)
Are you using distilled water + antifreeze?
 6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

8/27/2021 8:32 AM  #20


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

There's no harm in running the engine 220-230 degrees.  You could run it much hotter if you could pressurize the cooling system enough.  The only danger from heat until you hit something like 280-300 degrees, is when the coolant stops being liquid and becomes steam.  Steam doesn't transfer heat, in fact it insulates.  Baring that, the hotter an engine runs the more efficient it becomes.  Modern cars often don't even turn on the cooling fans until 230 degrees.  Its one of the many ways OEMs have used to reduce emissions. 

The danger is making sure you have enough window to keep it from boiling over.  If it consistently runs 220 on dog hot days with the AC cranked, but doesn't keep rising above 220 my thoughts are that you don't have a problem.  If its 220, but after an hour (or less) its 230, etc. that would concern me, because the cooling system isn't keeping the temperature in check; its fighting a losing battle. 

 

8/27/2021 2:04 PM  #21


Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

Here are the details of my cooling system.  I add a Vintage A/C system a few years ago and did not have to make any changes to the cooling system.  It does not overheat with the A/C on, 90+ temps and driving in 'city' type traffic.


  • Aluminum Radiator: Summit SUM-380461 (Manufactured by “Northern”)
  • [list=circle]
  • Installs in the stock location.
  • Core dimensions: W15.625”x H 17.375”x D 2.25”
  • Inlet & outlet on Passenger Side

  • Flow Kool Water Pump (#1680)
  • Electric Fan: Spal 16” single-speed #30102120
  • No Fan shroud.
  • DCC Fan Controller #FK45
  • 180° Thermostat
  • Temp Reading Radiator Cap (Mr. Gasket #2471S, 16PSI)
  • Over Flow Container

  •  Note that I had to slightly trim the nose of the water pump to avoid contact with the electric fan.
     


    65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
     

    8/27/2021 3:00 PM  #22


    Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

    BobE wrote:

    H
    [/list]
     Note that I had to slightly trim the nose of the water pump to avoid contact with the electric fan.
     

    Funny you should say that...fer years I drove around with elec. fan and the 'Clarance' was less than 1/2"!
    really close between the fan mow-der and the W/P.
    Eventually I needed to replace the water pump and realized.......different WP's for a SBF have short noses and others have long noses!!
    I switched over to the short nose and now have.......(some) Clarance .....more than the first pump.
    6sal6


    Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
     

    8/27/2021 5:24 PM  #23


    Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

    6sally6 wrote:

    BobE wrote:

    H
    [/list]
     Note that I had to slightly trim the nose of the water pump to avoid contact with the electric fan.
     

    Funny you should say that...fer years I drove around with elec. fan and the 'Clarance' was less than 1/2"!
    really close between the fan mow-der and the W/P.
    Eventually I needed to replace the water pump and realized.......different WP's for a SBF have short noses and others have long noses!!
    I switched over to the short nose and now have.......(some) Clarance .....more than the first pump.
    6sal6

    What tool did y’all use to do that?
    I tried cutting with a bandsaw on old pump.
    The teeth just skipped across the chrome shaft.

    At least I think it was chrome on a stock type pump.

     

    8/29/2021 11:50 AM  #24


    Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

    I used a cut-off wheel on my pneumatic grinder. 


    65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
     

    9/18/2021 11:43 AM  #25


    Re: Heres a new topic to discuss!!!

    How does this flow look????

    https://youtu.be/Q5-l9zKWGkY

    Last edited by terry (9/18/2021 11:44 AM)

       Thread Starter
     

    Board footera


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