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12/31/2020 3:42 PM  #26


Re: Mechanical Engineering question

RTM wrote:

Thats crazy and i have never seen that before.  Did the outer part of the front dampener slip causing it to become out of balance too?

BobE wrote:

As I understand the change was made due to loading on the #1 bearing that lead to the crankshaft breaking.
The change didn't help my 86 full size Bronco's 302's crankshaft.
Interesting is that a vibration developed (I assumed the crank had started to crack) and it took a few months driving 50 miles daily back and forth to work before it got real bad and I had to reduce speed.  I did make it home, and below is what it looked like when it was taken apart.  I'm still shocked that it ran like this.

 

I've seen a couple GM DMax Diesels do that and still run.  I saw a Vortec equipped Tahoe that hydrolocked with fuel from a blown central injector do it, but it snapped the crank trying to start it, so it never ran like that.  Its crazy what an engine can endure and still run.  I saw a dragster at the strip grenade a piston and throw the rod through the side of the block.  It came in to the pit still running with this loud and rapid  thwap, thwap coming from it.  The sound was the rod trying to beat its way through the framerail!  Crower builds a really tough set of rods in case anyone was wondering

 

12/31/2020 4:05 PM  #27


Re: Mechanical Engineering question

There is no reason it shouldn't continue to run. Looking at the broken parts they would still contribute to turning the rest of the parts. It maybe a little out of time but still run. I've seen both trucks and airplanes come home in that condition and with the tops of pistons and valves sucked into the cylinder and pieces in the next cylinder. A engine on an airplane my bro was flying thru a rod and busted the case but kept on running. He made it home with about an inch of oil left in a # 10 coffee can. These engine are junk but they got home. Sometimes the engine is sacrificed.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

1/01/2021 7:38 AM  #28


Re: Mechanical Engineering question

My buddy and I pulled apart a 350 SBC years ago from a 1/2 ton truck.  The truck ran and drove before we pulled the engine.  The idle was terrible and super high, but it ran, and wouldn't stall when put into gear.  It had a bad miss.  My buddy thought, burned valve, bad rings in a couple cylinders, etc., but still a rebuildable core, and as it was in a truck it should have been a 4 bolt main.

Oh what we found when we popped the heads off it!  There was no piston or rod in the #7 cylinder.  The crank had a worm drive clamp holding the rod bearings in place (it still had decent oil pressure).  Oh if that was all!  #8 cylinder the piston had shattered and was in pieces in the oil pan.  The #8 rod, with the pin still pressed into the small end, had cut two grooves into the thrust side of the bore on its way to the water jacket, but it hadn't hit the water jacket yet, and thus no water in the oil.  No lifters or pushrods for #7.  Was it on borrowed time?  Definitely.  Was it rebuildable?  Definitely not.  Still, pretty amazing it ran in V6 mode.

 

1/01/2021 7:47 AM  #29


Re: Mechanical Engineering question

Back on topic, this whole idea of loading the crank got me thinking.  It had been a while, but my recollection of the old SBC firing order had two pairs of cylinders firing in order.  That order is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 with cylinders numbered odd on the RH bank and even on the LH bank.  Cylinders 3 & 4 and 5 & 6 share rod journals and fire one right after the other in the firing order.  I've never seen a SBC with a crank failure (excluding that Vortec engine I mentioned, but that was due to something other than an inherent firing order issue). 

So if the issue was crank loading why doesn't the SBC have crank failures all the time?  The other only possible explanation here is that the thrust bearing is in the center on a SBC, between the pairs of rod journals noted.  That bulkhead and main journal are a little heavier than the others as a result.  That said, I don't know that that would save the crank if crank loading were truly the issue. 

I therefore think that the most likely reason was harmonics.  Not destructive harmonics, but harmonics that rob power or effect balance/smoothness of running. 

 

1/02/2021 9:46 AM  #30


Re: Mechanical Engineering question

TKOPerformance wrote:

RTM wrote:

Thats crazy and i have never seen that before.  Did the outer part of the front dampener slip causing it to become out of balance too?

BobE wrote:

As I understand the change was made due to loading on the #1 bearing that lead to the crankshaft breaking.
The change didn't help my 86 full size Bronco's 302's crankshaft.
Interesting is that a vibration developed (I assumed the crank had started to crack) and it took a few months driving 50 miles daily back and forth to work before it got real bad and I had to reduce speed.  I did make it home, and below is what it looked like when it was taken apart.  I'm still shocked that it ran like this.

 

I've seen a couple GM DMax Diesels do that and still run.  I saw a Vortec equipped Tahoe that hydrolocked with fuel from a blown central injector do it, but it snapped the crank trying to start it, so it never ran like that.  Its crazy what an engine can endure and still run.  I saw a dragster at the strip grenade a piston and throw the rod through the side of the block.  It came in to the pit still running with this loud and rapid  thwap, thwap coming from it.  The sound was the rod trying to beat its way through the framerail!  Crower builds a really tough set of rods in case anyone was wondering

The break was on a diagonal , so it keep everything moving ... with a lot of noise and vibration!!  Just going at about 15-20 MPH one could hear it a 1000 feet away.
 


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

1/02/2021 10:43 AM  #31


Re: Mechanical Engineering question

Are there potential issues with a crankshaft when changing firing order?
Is it similar to valve springs with a larger camshaft?
Would the crankshaft be “set” in its previous firing order?

     Thread Starter
 

1/03/2021 7:32 AM  #32


Re: Mechanical Engineering question

Nos681 wrote:

Are there potential issues with a crankshaft when changing firing order?
Is it similar to valve springs with a larger camshaft?
Would the crankshaft be “set” in its previous firing order?

Basically you are wondering if the stresses the crank had previously endured would create a fatigue life related failure when switching the firing order.  That is, materials have a yield strength and a fatigue life, both of which can cause failures.  The yield strength is the amount of force required to create permanent deformation of the material, indicating a failure on the molecular level.  The part has failed, and has now become a serious liability, if its not outright broken.  For obvious reasons under normal circumstances you would never put a part into service that comes even close to its yield strength based on loading in normal operation.  The issue therefore becomes fatigue life, which is the amount of loading below the yield strength it takes for a part to fail given enough cycles of repetition.  Imagine you drive forward and backward over the same path through an unpaved field.  Eventually you start to create ruts.  At some point you create ruts so deep that you probably could drive the route without having to even use the steering wheel to keep on track.  The molecules in a metal do this exact same thing when the metal is loaded the same way over and over again.  Eventually the bonds and lattice structure start to weaken from this repeated back and forth (not having to use the wheel is a bad thing in this example).  At some point there will be a catastrophic failure of the lattice at a load much lower than the yield strength due to the weakening that's occurred over many, many cycles of loading.  In an engine that's a loading cycle probably measured in billions or even trillions of cycles, but considering how often the loading happens in a running engine (once per revolution) it starts to be concern.  This is why NASCAR teams assign a life value to every part in the engine and change out those parts before they get to the point where they've had fatigue life related failures with those parts in the past. 

That's the theory, but in the real world, If switching between the 5.0 order and the 289/320 order I would say a fatigue life related failure is unlikely.  The crank is already undergoing the same stresses in terms of cylinder firing; its just that you are swapping two pairs of cylinders in that order.  So the question becomes whether or not there's some fatigue life related weakness from shear stress from the specific order, but honestly, since you are changing the loading if anything you've probably at least marginally increased the part's fatigue life because you are now in essence charting a new path through the field.  In a typical street engine I certainly wouldn't worry about it.  In a high performance engine likely you aren't using stock crank anyway, so its also likely a non factor.  If you're planning to use a stock, high mileage crank in a performance build and are worried about failure I'd say my concern would stem primarily from what the crank is made from and its previous life rather than concerns about the firing order swap.  The problem there is an issue of trying to use low performance parts in a high performance engine, which is simply a bad idea from the drive. 

Upon further review something else dawned on me.  If you look at the 5.0 firing order it still has two cylinders on the same rod journal firing one right after the other; its just that instead of 1&5 its become 4&8.  Interestingly 4&8 are on the journal closest to the thrust bearing and the rear bulkhead of the engine.  Apparently that was preferable to the location of that event in the old order, and it is interesting that in the SBC firing order the two pairs of cylinders that fire one right after each other are on either side of the center main journal, which is also the location of the thrust bearing in the SBC.  I don't think this is coincidence.

 

1/03/2021 12:42 PM  #33


Re: Mechanical Engineering question

Maybe the front of the ford firing 1-5 sees more stress due to the longer crank snot sticking out with load from belts where the rear of the crank has support on either side.  But that theory isn’t really to good because of 4-8 firing.   Just thinking out loud.   Lol

 

9/03/2021 9:27 PM  #34


Re: Mechanical Engineering question

7.3L Go Go Godzilla firing order:

1-5-4-8
6-3-7-2

     Thread Starter
 

Board footera


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