FYI FORD MustangSteve's Ford Mustang Forum / Second water pump in 2400 miles

**Posted by MS** 6/07/2024 8:12 PM

On my 69 with 331 stroker and CVF Wraptor accessory belt system, it has gone through two water pumps since installed, both within 2,400 miles.
The first one was the CVF original one they supplied. It is a Ford standard rotation pump with s shortened shaft. I don’t think it ever came in that configuration on any car.
The first one failed nearly immediately as the shaft pulled forward out of the impeller. CVF sent another pump, but I bought a new Ford Racing version from Summit to hopefully avoid another off-brand pump coming apart. Well, the Ford pump is now leaking profusely. So, I guess I can now install the CVF pump they sent as a replacement.

I have never had issues with water pumps before. The entire CVF Wraptor belt system bolts on with just four bolts, all of which also attach the pump to the timing cover. I don’t see how that could cause pump failures, but what the heck???

Mainly this is a warning to others having the Wraptor system to keep an eye on their pumps. Now, I am hesitant to drive this car on the Bash trip which will be over 3,500 miles round trip, and the water pumps historically are not holding up long enough for one trip.

If GMB made a pump with that shorter shaft, I would buy one.

**Posted by Toploader** 6/08/2024 1:42 AM

I was talking to a buddy just the other week and he was commenting on going through water pumps too. What is going on??? Seriously, what is going on???
I also read somewhere that people were sending their water pumps to be ceramic coated internally, but wondered if this would improve the function of the water pump and how this would go in the long term.

Last edited by Toploader (6/08/2024 1:46 AM)

**Posted by RTM** 6/08/2024 5:07 AM

Well not something I wanted to read this morning. I have the same CVF setup.

**Posted by BobE** 6/08/2024 5:23 AM

IMO - the shaft pulling out of the pump is a defective assembly, unfortunately a sign of the today’s manufacturing.
The typical failure of water pumps is either the seal fails and leaks, or the bearing fails which causes the seal to leak. It is helpful to determine which happened, although there isn’t a lot one can do to avoid recurrence.
Check if the belt too tight, causing too much tension on the pump bearing.
Running just pure water without antifreeze, or some other ‘lubricant’, can cause the seal to fail.

**Posted by Jim Bowie** 6/08/2024 5:34 AM

So water pumps lifters camshafts what's next?.I think I went through two pumps within the first year I put the 66 pony on the road in 2010, it turned out to be the fan was out of balance. Changed fan and 12 years later still good.

**Posted by Greg B** 6/08/2024 6:06 AM

It's almost as if this system puts way too much pressure on the pump bearing. Somewhere there has to be a tension recommendation by Ford, and a way to check it.

Edit: couple of additional thoughts while contemplating...how much does the cvf pulley weigh compared to a stock pulley? What is the diameter compared to a stock pulley?

Last edited by Greg B (6/08/2024 6:15 AM)

**Posted by TKOPerformance** 6/08/2024 6:42 AM

If the shaft is coming out of the impeller what about tack welding the impeller to the shaft? Granted I would like to know why it;s doing that (like what would cause forward tension on the pump shaft, or was it just a loose press fit).

**Posted by rpm** 6/08/2024 8:25 AM

They can't get it down after making those water pumps for sixty plus years???

Last edited by RPM, aka Bearing Bob (6/08/2024 8:25 AM)

**Posted by Rudi** 6/08/2024 1:25 PM

When I took out the 289 in my 68 and replaced it with the 331 ordered a new water pump, it was actually a rebuild.
It came with a sheet metal impeller, I returned it and told the local parts store and told them to order one with a cast iron impeller, they said they now all come with tin ones.
The guy behind the counter, actually my cousin, said he could send my old one out to be rebuilt and make a note not to replace the impeller.
That w/p is still leakproof and working fine after thousands of miles.
Perhaps you could find an original and have it rebuilt or even diys.
Used to be rebuilding kits were available, might be worth looking into.
I’d probably trust one I did myself over the junk being sold these days.

Last edited by Rudi (6/08/2024 1:29 PM)

**Posted by BobE** 6/09/2024 4:54 AM

RPM, aka Bearing Bob wrote:
They can't get it down after making those water pumps for sixty plus years???

From what I seen, it is not knowing how to do it properly, it is a matter of using the cheapest products, many that do not follow specifications. Purposely cutting costs on materials to maximize profits creating failed seals, bearings, cam lifters, etc, etc. Unfortunately, many of these foreign made products do not care about the quality of their final product. While the consumer is left holding the bag.

**Posted by TKOPerformance** 6/09/2024 6:12 AM

Rudi wrote:
When I took out the 289 in my 68 and replaced it with the 331 ordered a new water pump, it was actually a rebuild.
It came with a sheet metal impeller, I returned it and told the local parts store and told them to order one with a cast iron impeller, they said they now all come with tin ones.
The guy behind the counter, actually my cousin, said he could send my old one out to be rebuilt and make a note not to replace the impeller.
That w/p is still leakproof and working fine after thousands of miles.
Perhaps you could find an original and have it rebuilt or even diys.
Used to be rebuilding kits were available, might be worth looking into.
I’d probably trust one I did myself over the junk being sold these days.

Any bearing or seal should have a number on it, and should be available (even if you had to source NOS ones places like eBay, etc. can probably hook you up). I've never tried to rebuild a water pump, but I've rebuilt other things like that before.

**Posted by TKOPerformance** 6/09/2024 6:14 AM

BobE wrote:
RPM, aka Bearing Bob wrote:
They can't get it down after making those water pumps for sixty plus years???
From what I seen, it is not knowing how to do it properly, it is a matter of using the cheapest products, many that do not follow specifications. Purposely cutting costs on materials to maximize profits creating failed seals, bearings, cam lifters, etc, etc. Unfortunately, many of these foreign made products do not care about the quality of their final product. While the consumer is left holding the bag.

Its also part of living in a disposable society. So much of what we use daily isn't repairable. Remember when there used to be TV repair shops? Now is a TV stops working you throw it out and buy another one. Even cars are headed that direction.

**Posted by Nos681** 6/09/2024 6:44 AM

RPM, aka Bearing Bob wrote:
They can't get it down after making those water pumps for sixty plus years???

Dude, they can’t get headers down either.
Same POS design from way back.

No wonder LS’s are showing up in stuff.
Nothing being made for Ford’s that is affordable for the masses.

Last edited by Nos681 (6/09/2024 6:47 AM)

**Posted by MS** 6/09/2024 9:31 AM

I have a theory

This water pump is a short shaft pump that never came on any car. I am wondering if they are converting the longer shaft pump to a short shaft AFTER the long shaft pump is manufactured. This would involve pressing the pulley mounting flange farther down the shaft, then cutting off the protruding shaft. This could affect the fit of stuff inside the pump.
Unfortunately, this pump is only available from CVF or Summit Racing ir similar retailers. Auto parts stores do not carry it.

The belt tension is maintained with a spring-loaded tensioner. The pulley is aluminum and similar size to stock.

If I were to do this over, I would opt for the reverse rotation pump setup. It eliminates two extra idler pulleys, simplifying the system. I bought this CVF Wraptor system at a deep discount from the manufacturer because it said it had some scratches on it.

At this point I have no choice but to install the replacement pump they sent with the kit and hope for the best.

**Posted by 50vert** 6/09/2024 6:54 PM

Dead Nuts On has rebuild kits, and a tool that makes pressing them apart, and back together easier.
I also think that I'd try buying a GMB pump, disassemble, cut the shaft, and reassemble.

**Posted by BobE** 6/10/2024 7:59 AM

50vert - thank you for the info on "Dead Nuts On".

**Posted by RTM** 6/10/2024 8:12 AM

Is it possible to buy a higher grade/load bearing when rebuilding one yourself?

**Posted by MS** 6/10/2024 9:31 AM

On the first failure, the shaft slid out. I have not removed the second one yet. It appears to spin just fine so I din’t thing it is a bearing failure. But it is leaking profusely and can’t see the leak from the top. Can’t see the lower side because of all the CVF crap.

**Posted by Nos681** 6/12/2024 6:21 AM

Have ya thought of rebuilding a cast iron pump?

https://www.deadnutson.com/1970-73-351w-302-351c-boss-351-water-pump-rebuild-kit/

Perhaps a cast iron pump is more rigid?

Last edited by Nos681 (6/12/2024 6:22 AM)

**Posted by Nos681** 6/12/2024 6:24 AM

**Posted by Bolted to Floor** 6/25/2024 11:44 AM

MS wrote:
I have a theory

This water pump is a short shaft pump that never came on any car. I am wondering if they are converting the longer shaft pump to a short shaft AFTER the long shaft pump is manufactured. This would involve pressing the pulley mounting flange farther down the shaft, then cutting off the protruding shaft. This could affect the fit of stuff inside the pump.
Unfortunately, this pump is only available from CVF or Summit Racing ir similar retailers. Auto parts stores do not carry it.

The belt tension is maintained with a spring-loaded tensioner. The pulley is aluminum and similar size to stock.

If I were to do this over, I would opt for the reverse rotation pump setup. It eliminates two extra idler pulleys, simplifying the system. I bought this CVF Wraptor system at a deep discount from the manufacturer because it said it had some scratches on it.

At this point I have no choice but to install the replacement pump they sent with the kit and hope for the best.

This is worth investigating. It could be part of the problem if they are altering the shaft after assemble.

What about having the one on the car rebuilt after you get it off? Throw it in the truck for the Bash trip. I know your aversion to carrying tools.... you can buy those along the way if you have to change it out.

**Posted by MS** 6/27/2024 2:45 PM

Update on water pump failure.
The first pump failed when the impeller shaft slid forward. That allowed the impeller to try and mill its way forward into the aluminum pump housing, creating a boatload of tiny aluminum particles in the coolant system. It did not dawn on me this would be problematic, or as widespread as it is.
Apparently the abrasive particles took out the seals in the new pump in a very short time. When I pulled the radiator, this grey stuff came pouring out.
So, now I have to flush the radiator and pull the thermostat so I can flush the engine. I plan to put a lot of Dawn in there to try and float all the aluminum dust out of there with a garden hose. I will flow from top down, then bottom up, then top down until water runs perfectly clear.
Hopefully the new pump will have a chance for a long life after this effort.
I bought a new high volume Tuff Stuff shorty pump. Will keep the CVF replacement pump they sent me after the first failure in the trunk, just in case.

**Posted by BobE** 6/28/2024 6:14 AM

MS - just suggesting that when you flush the engine I would ensure the back of the engine is higher than the front so that any material doesn't find a home in the back of the block. Opening the engine drains (especially the rear one on the driver's side) will also help in cleaning out the block.
Make sure you get all that Dawn out so you don't have any issues with "foaming" when you get it back together. Using hot water can assist in getting the Dawn out.

**Posted by TKOPerformance** 6/28/2024 6:35 AM

I would pull the block drains when flushing. I usually put petcocks in engines I build for this purpose in the future.

**Posted by rpm** 6/28/2024 9:34 AM

TKOPerformance wrote:
I would pull the block drains when flushing. I usually put petcocks in engines I build for this purpose in the future.

Where can a guy find a quality petcock these days? I get one use out of them before the T handle spins on the shaft on the ones I've bought lately.