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2/20/2017 10:37 AM  #1


Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Hey guys...fighting a vibration again.  67 Mustang coupe, 289, T-5, 8-inch rear with 3.25 gears
Vibration starts at about 70mph and gets worse the faster I go.
Driveshaft has been balanced.
U-joints have been replaced.
Tried two different driveshafts (1 aluminum, 1 steel) with two different slip yokes.
Replaced my T-5 with a rebuilt T-5 from Glenn as Rosehillperformanceparts.com
Tried 2 degree pinion shims
Vibration is driveline related, not engine related... At 70mph I can shift into neutral and shut the engine off and the vibration is still there.
I don't think it's a bent axle because when I had 2.79 gears it happened at a much higher speed.  I would think a bent axle would vibrate at the same ground-speed regardless of gearing.

Now, having said that I decided to look at my driveline angles again.
Here is a rough sketch of what I found.


On the front surface of the crankshaft I got a reading of 86 degrees.
On the front of the pinion I got a reading of 89 degrees... so the pinion would have to come up 3 degrees to be perfectly in line with the engine/transmission.  Which is what I thought  you wanted so that it would come into alignment under torque load.

I have a set of 4 degree shims I could install, which would bring it up 2 more degrees than the 2 degree shims that are currently in there... which would make the pinion 1 degree lower than the transmission (instead of 3 degrees)... But I thought 3 degrees was the desired setting.

Really frustrated and tired of fighting this issue...Suggestions????
 

Last edited by Michael H. (2/20/2017 1:30 PM)

 

2/20/2017 7:34 PM  #2


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

I have the same setup. Had the same vibration. Added 3deg shims and improved a lot . Not totally gone but livable. I would try the 4deg shims and see if it improves. I talked to a drive shaft shop about replacing the rear u joint with a cv joint like the 4x4 guys use .

 

2/20/2017 8:09 PM  #3


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Tremec has an app to install on your smart phone that would be helpful.  The app is pretty easy, you take measurement's at engine (valve cover or oil pan rail), driveshaft and rear end.

Don't know how your measuring butt usual trans angle with T5 is 4*-5* and you look to have 1.5*-2* less (down) than trans at rear.

Larry

 

2/21/2017 5:57 AM  #4


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Steve-G wrote:

I have the same setup. Had the same vibration. Added 3deg shims and improved a lot . Not totally gone but livable. I would try the 4deg shims and see if it improves. I talked to a drive shaft shop about replacing the rear u joint with a cv joint like the 4x4 guys use .

  Have the exact same set up in my 69 and I went with the 3 deg shim too.  Its much better but a slight vibration that I can live with.

Steve69
 

 

2/21/2017 8:47 AM  #5


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Thanks for the responses guys!  I've downloaded the Tremec app.  I'll remeasure my angles with it and report back.

Just for the heck of it I may throw the 4 degree shims on there since I already have them.

     Thread Starter
 

2/21/2017 10:07 AM  #6


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Red, I'm open to any suggestions, but I'm not sure I understand how you are suggesting to measure.

     Thread Starter
 

2/21/2017 10:56 AM  #7


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Can I ask what engine mounts, tail shaft mount, rear springs, shackles etc. you are running? If you are having to play with 1 or 2 deg. shims, something else in your rear end geometry has changed dramatically (if it is geometry related). The stock setup with the addition of a T5 should not require shims at all. I run the same driveline components and have no geometry issues. I did add Ron Morris engine mounts and Prothane bushings throughout and it definitely changed what I hear and feel through the steering wheel. I wouldn't say that the new feel is a vibration as much as more "sensory feedback" from the driveline. Any chance that other changes you've made could be doing the same?

I guess I have to address the 500 lb. gorilla in the room and ask the most obvious question "Have you swapped out rear tires and wheels to rule out anything related to tire or wheel balance? Sorry, but reading through your thread, nobody wanted to be the idiot to ask the most obvious question, so I guess I'm it! I have thrown a wheel weight which resulted in a condition similar to what you describe.


'66 GT Fastback, 302, Edelbrock top end, Sniper EFI, MSD, JBA Headers & Exhaust, T-5Z, Currie 3.55 Trac-Loc
 

2/21/2017 1:25 PM  #8


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

rhutt wrote:

Can I ask what engine mounts, tail shaft mount, rear springs, shackles etc. you are running? If you are having to play with 1 or 2 deg. shims, something else in your rear end geometry has changed dramatically (if it is geometry related). The stock setup with the addition of a T5 should not require shims at all. I run the same driveline components and have no geometry issues. I did add Ron Morris engine mounts and Prothane bushings throughout and it definitely changed what I hear and feel through the steering wheel. I wouldn't say that the new feel is a vibration as much as more "sensory feedback" from the driveline. Any chance that other changes you've made could be doing the same?

I guess I have to address the 500 lb. gorilla in the room and ask the most obvious question "Have you swapped out rear tires and wheels to rule out anything related to tire or wheel balance? Sorry, but reading through your thread, nobody wanted to be the idiot to ask the most obvious question, so I guess I'm it! I have thrown a wheel weight which resulted in a condition similar to what you describe.

  I had the same vibration when I had a 4 speed. When I switched to the 5 speed it got a little worse.   I did lower my car quite a bit in the front and rear and I think that's what started the problem.  I don't remember the vibration prior to lowering.  Steve69
 

 

2/21/2017 1:46 PM  #9


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

For what its worth, try and avoid severe angles.  As the driveshaft rotates with standard u-joints, the rotation is cyclic, like a sine wave.  The lower the angle, the smaller the sine wave.  Some angle is good as the assumption is the rear axle will rotate slightly during acceleration and effectively neutral the angle.  The front and rear angles should be the same but should be less than 3-4 degrees.  The angle also helps keep the u-joint needles moving around and avoiding a wear spot.

 

2/22/2017 11:57 AM  #10


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

rhutt wrote:

Can I ask what engine mounts, tail shaft mount, rear springs, shackles etc. you are running?

Ron Morris Performance engine mounts (poly bushings). Ron Morris Performance T5 conversion crossmember.  Stock 4-speed transmission mount (rubber).  OEM replacement springs and shackles (rubber bushings).

rhutt wrote:

If you are having to play with 1 or 2 deg. shims, something else in your rear end geometry has changed dramatically (if it is geometry related). The stock setup with the addition of a T5 should not require shims at all. I run the same driveline components and have no geometry issues.

Sounds like you got lucky.  If you do some reading here and other classic mustang forums you'll find that this is a very common problem after a T-5 swap due to the rear of the T-5 having to hang lower than a stock transmission to make it fit.  Typically pinion angle shims are required to fix it.  I did see an improvement after installing the 2 degree shims, but it's still very noticeable.
What gears are you running? I will say that the vibration wasn't very noticeable until swapping from 2.79 gears to 3.25 gears... I attribute this to the driveshaft having to turn faster to accomplish the same ground speed.  At first I suspected the 3.25 chunk was bad, but I also tried a 3.80 chunk with the same result (except the vibration started around 60mph with the 3.80 gears).

rhutt wrote:

I did add Ron Morris engine mounts and Prothane bushings throughout and it definitely changed what I hear and feel through the steering wheel. I wouldn't say that the new feel is a vibration as much as more "sensory feedback" from the driveline. Any chance that other changes you've made could be doing the same?

I had the poly Ron Morris engine mounts before swapping to a T-5.  They did increase the felt engine vibration a little... but this vibration is TOTALLY different.  The increase I felt in engine vibration from the poly engine mounts was felt mostly in the steering wheel.  This is felt mostly in my lower back/butt.

rhutt wrote:

I guess I have to address the 500 lb. gorilla in the room and ask the most obvious question "Have you swapped out rear tires and wheels to rule out anything related to tire or wheel balance? Sorry, but reading through your thread, nobody wanted to be the idiot to ask the most obvious question, so I guess I'm it! I have thrown a wheel weight which resulted in a condition similar to what you describe.

I have rotated my wheels/tires back to front and the vibration remains in the back.
I don't think it's wheel and tire related for the same reason I don't think it's a bent axle ...when I had 2.79 gears it happened at a much higher speed (above 80mph).  I would think a bent axle (or wheel/tire) vibration would occur at the same ground-speed regardless of gearing.
 

Last edited by Michael H. (2/22/2017 11:59 AM)

     Thread Starter
 

2/22/2017 12:09 PM  #11


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

I'll throw in my 2 cents.... I have ran the 2 degree shims when I first put in the 5 speed, changing from a Top-loader. Fixed the vibration issue, however I was running 51/2 leaf reverse eye springs and they didn't move hardly at all. That being said, I recently did some changing and am now running the 41/2 mid eye springs, and had to take the shims out... Remember for stockish type leafs, you'll get about 2 degrees roll up upon acceleration and driving. You can also have too much angle like I think mine ended up being before I took the shims out. I'd try taking out the 2 degree shims and see if the vibration gets Worse or Better and go from there. I know it's a PITA, but I've been there and have been chasing this last deal for a couple of months myself. 


"The OLDER I Get....The FASTER I Was..."
 

2/22/2017 12:59 PM  #12


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Michael-
I'm running an 8" Currie 3:55 TracLoc and use the T5 crossmember supplied by MDL. Is the Ron Morris crossmember lower than mine? I did have a new driveshaft made including new yoke and u-joints. One change I have made is the addition of a 5/16" spacer between the Ron Morris mount and the engine block which effectively raised the engine by that amount at the front (for header clearance). That actually changes the angle similar to dropping the tailshaft by the same amount.


'66 GT Fastback, 302, Edelbrock top end, Sniper EFI, MSD, JBA Headers & Exhaust, T-5Z, Currie 3.55 Trac-Loc
 

2/22/2017 1:50 PM  #13


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

rhutt wrote:

Michael-
I'm running an 8" Currie 3:55 TracLoc and use the T5 crossmember supplied by MDL. Is the Ron Morris crossmember lower than mine? I did have a new driveshaft made including new yoke and u-joints. One change I have made is the addition of a 5/16" spacer between the Ron Morris mount and the engine block which effectively raised the engine by that amount at the front (for header clearance). That actually changes the angle similar to dropping the tailshaft by the same amount.

That's very interesting... I'm not sure if the Ron Morris crossmember hangs lower, but I doubt it very much.  I say that because I tried putting some thick washers between the transmission mount and the crossmember to raise the tail of the transmission slightly, and I could only fit one washer.  If I tried to raise it any higher the transmission hit the support ridge in the transmission tunnel.  I didn't measure the thickness of the washers but I'd guess somewhere around 3/16".
The only other factor I can seem to think of (but I don't think it should matter) is the fact that I'm using the 4-speed bell-housing with a T-5 adapter plate instead of the actual T-5 bell-housing.
 

     Thread Starter
 

2/22/2017 1:51 PM  #14


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Mach1_Ron wrote:

I'll throw in my 2 cents.... I have ran the 2 degree shims when I first put in the 5 speed, changing from a Top-loader. Fixed the vibration issue, however I was running 51/2 leaf reverse eye springs and they didn't move hardly at all. That being said, I recently did some changing and am now running the 41/2 mid eye springs, and had to take the shims out... Remember for stockish type leafs, you'll get about 2 degrees roll up upon acceleration and driving. You can also have too much angle like I think mine ended up being before I took the shims out. I'd try taking out the 2 degree shims and see if the vibration gets Worse or Better and go from there. I know it's a PITA, but I've been there and have been chasing this last deal for a couple of months myself. 

The vibration was worse prior to installing the 2 degree shims, but you do bring up an interesting point.
I wonder if stiffer springs or Traction Bars would help due to limiting the amount that the pinion could rotate under torque load.

Last edited by Michael H. (2/22/2017 2:09 PM)

     Thread Starter
 

2/22/2017 2:28 PM  #15


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Michael H. wrote:

rhutt wrote:

Michael-
I'm running an 8" Currie 3:55 TracLoc and use the T5 crossmember supplied by MDL. Is the Ron Morris crossmember lower than mine? I did have a new driveshaft made including new yoke and u-joints. One change I have made is the addition of a 5/16" spacer between the Ron Morris mount and the engine block which effectively raised the engine by that amount at the front (for header clearance). That actually changes the angle similar to dropping the tailshaft by the same amount.

That's very interesting... I'm not sure if the Ron Morris crossmember hangs lower, but I doubt it very much.  I say that because I tried putting some thick washers between the transmission mount and the crossmember to raise the tail of the transmission slightly, and I could only fit one washer.  If I tried to raise it any higher the transmission hit the support ridge in the transmission tunnel.  I didn't measure the thickness of the washers but I'd guess somewhere around 3/16".
The only other factor I can seem to think of (but I don't think it should matter) is the fact that I'm using the 4-speed bell-housing with a T-5 adapter plate instead of the actual T-5 bell-housing.
 

I replaced a toploader with the T5Z and used the same bellhousing, clutch and pressure plate. Like you, I used the adapter. Our installations are not that much different, so if there are any measurements or dimensions you need, I will gladly pull them from my car.


'66 GT Fastback, 302, Edelbrock top end, Sniper EFI, MSD, JBA Headers & Exhaust, T-5Z, Currie 3.55 Trac-Loc
 

2/22/2017 2:50 PM  #16


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Thank you.  I really appreciate it!

     Thread Starter
 

4/03/2017 3:16 PM  #17


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Update:
User "Glens 1965 50" on this forum contacted me with a suggestion to try to overcome my vibration issue.
He told me that his brother had a similar problem and they solved it by adding a T-5 counter weight (see picture below).

Apparently these came from the factory on T5's in v6 and 4-cylinder mustangs to dampen harmonic vibrations that happen in the tailshaft of the T-5.  Glen was also kind enough to even send me a link to one one ebay so I'd be sure I was buying the right thing.  So, for about $36 I had this at my house in less than a week.  I bolted it on and test drove the car up to 85mph with no virtually vibrations.  I say virtually none because I get a VERY SLIGHT hint of a vibration at around 60, but by the time I hit 62 it's gone...and it's so slight it's a non-issue.

So apparently a T5 behind a 5.0L doesn't need this counter weight, but I sure needed it on the T5 behind my 289.  Glen said he thought his brother (who needed the counter weight) was running a 289 as well.
I wonder if it has to do with one be a 50oz balance and the other being a 28oz balance.

Thanks so much Glen!... Now I can drive it to the bash!

I'm curious... Has anybody here ran a T5 behind a 28oz balance engine with rear gearing of 3.25 or lower and not had a vibration?
 

     Thread Starter
 

4/03/2017 9:18 PM  #18


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Don's 66 289. T5 does not vibrate.
Al tried one of those weights at my suggestion and it did not help in his case.  Let's hope it fixed yours. He has 351W with 28 ounce and T5 and 3.25 rear.
My car has that little rumble starting at 72 MPH no matter what I have done.  I have tried all the suggestions listed above and more with very little change.  I feel the frustration! 


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

4/04/2017 7:59 AM  #19


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

I guess that shoots down my theory about it having to do with the 28oz balance of the 289...oh well.

To be clear I think the fix was two-fold:
1. Downloaded Tremec's driveline angle app and got my pinion angle in spec.  This required 4 degree shims in my case.
2. Installed the T5 counter weight

     Thread Starter
 

7/20/2019 9:48 PM  #20


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Hey Michael,

Was your vibration when coasting or letting off the gas?   Thanks Steve69

 

7/20/2019 11:22 PM  #21


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

One could say that an exercise in futility is trying to solve a problem when you don't know what the problem is.  You can't solve a vibration problem until you know the frequency of the vibration.  A driveshaft balance issue produces vibration at a frequency equal to the speed of the driveshaft.  A driveshaft alignment issue produces higher than normal vibration at 2X driveshaft speed.  To your hands or a well calibrated tail bone, these frequencies may feel about the same.  But, you can't solve a balance problem with alignment and vice versa.  So, you either need to find someone locally that has access to a vibration instrument that can measure frequency to determine the cause of the vibration or you can do a little trial and error testing to get a better handle on the forcing frequency that is actually causing your problem.

To prove or disprove driveshaft balance problem, you can force an unbalance condition through the creative use of hose clamps.  Take two or three (or more) hose clamps and mount them on the front of the driveshaft with all the heavy spots in line and go for a drive.  Compare the vibration you felt before at 70 (your initial complaint) to what you feel now.  If the vibration is exactly the same, add some more weight until you can feel the unbalance.  If the frequency created by the unbalance is lower than what you are trying to fix, then it is likely that you have a driveshaft alignment problem.  If the vibration frequency is the same but worse then you have a driveshaft balance problem.  Not all balance machines are equal and not all people who perform balancing have the same skills so "balanced" shaft from some shops can be pretty mediocre.  For fun, you can move the clamps to the back of the shaft near the rear u-joint to see what produces a better reaction.  Don't forget to take the clamps off when you are finished.

For alignment, there are some good suggestions.  Add shims or put in a 5 degree shim and force the pinion nose up.  If the problem gets worse or better the more you know that it is likely alignment related.  You may never get it perfectly aligned but you can often reach a compromise.  Having passengers in the back seats or luggage in the trunk can throw it off so go for an alignment that is best for most driving.  As suggested, compare the vibration at the same speed while going up a hill, down a hill and in neutral.  This can also help to determine whether the nose needs to come up or down.

The factory weights/masses suspended from rear axles, transmissions, etc., are often tuned absorbers or dampers that are designed to minimize a problem in a particular speed range.  They may or may not help in a car that did not originally have one but that is sometimes pure luck.  They are effective when there is a natural frequency of the axle or engine/transmission that is excited at a particular speed or rpm.  These natural frequencies are a complex combination of mass and stiffness and changing components such as engine and transmission mounts can render them ineffective or make a problem worse at a different speed.  When testing a new car, a manufacturer may find that right at 65 mph there is a vibration that is felt in the steering wheel or shifter, for example.  Using a designed tuned absorber, the problem is effectively killed at that speed.  But one of these absorbers can not correct for misalignment or unbalance.  They are only effective when everything else is good.

The 28 or 50 oz-in crankshaft unbalance won't make any difference if you are fighting an alignment problem or a driveshaft balance problem.  If they viration problem at 70 mph occurs in 3rd, 4th, and 5th gear, then the engine RPM is eliminated  and engine balance is not the problem.

Get some tape-on weights and repeat for wheels/axles.  Force a large unbalance in one of your front, and then rear wheels and compare what you feel at 70 mph.  Since the wheels are turning at a much lower rotating speed (RPM) than the driveshaft or engine, the vibration will be at a much lower frequency.  When can't measure frequency directly with a tool, use a few simple tests in a process of elimination.

There are some apps that allow you to use the accelerometers in your phone or tablet to measure vibration and frequency.  The upper frequency limit of these is about 50 Hz or 3000 CPM (cycles per minute) which is not high enough to measure driveline vibration problems.  Head on out to Denver and I'll measure your vibration and frequency.  Only takes a few minutes with the right tool and with a little experience.

There are some other conditions that could be causing your vibration but start with the simple stuff.  For example, a simple resonance of your exhaust system structure can produce a speed sensitivity.  However, you mentioned that problem sets in at about 70 and gets worse.  If it actually is worse at 75 and gone at 80 resonance is likely,   If it gets steadily worse, then balance and alignment are more likely.  You can also get into issues with 1/2 speed criticals of your driveshaft but the fact that you have tried several different driveshaft designs would tend to eliminate that.

Please excuse any typos. as jet lag has firmly settled in.  Just landed in Indonesia a few hours ago to teach, of all things, a vibration course this week.

 

7/21/2019 8:27 AM  #22


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Thanks for the info GPatrick!   My vibration is between 55mp and up in 5th Gear.  When I let off the gas or coast I get a vibration.  I added a 2.5 degree shim to raise the axle nose up.  It helped a bit.  I pulled them out and added a 6 degree shim.  Seems to be a little louder than with the 2.5 degree shim.  I have 4.5 leaf spring with 1" lower.  I also have 1" lower blocks and the shims.   Im ready to remove the 1" lower blocks and the traction bars and then try to figure out whats going on.  I like the look of it lowered but not the ride and noise.   Thanks Steve69

 

7/22/2019 9:20 AM  #23


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Yes, thanks for that info gpatrick.

Steve69 wrote:

I like the look of it lowered but not the ride and noise.   Thanks Steve69

Ain't that the damn truth!


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

7/22/2019 10:28 AM  #24


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

 

7/22/2019 10:47 AM  #25


Re: Vibration Problem at 70mph...Help me interpret these measurements

Out of curiosity, was this an original 289 car? Someone please chime in if ya know...aren’t there two different motor mount brackets? Small block and big block.  Both look similar but there is a height difference for the mounts?  I don’t know for sure since I have the early ‘65 mounts.  I remember running across this information while looking at converting to the 66-70 motor mounts.

Last edited by Nos681 (7/22/2019 10:53 AM)

 

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