FYI FORD MustangSteve's Ford Mustang Forum » 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

Raymond_B · 1/02/2020 12:11 PM

Well I do believe that the article is legit as far as HP/TQ numbers are concerned, it is relevant to the discussion, and validates a lot of what you and a lot of us have said. Which is 325 FWHP is fairly easy to attain by swapping a few parts, namely the cam. They also did it with a carb which is something the OP wanted to stick with. Not going to address the other points as they are not relevant to the discussion.

TKOPerformance · 1/02/2020 2:03 PM

As far as magazine builds, if you want to stay on book, sure, you can build the same engine they did, for around the same price (though I would figure on at least 10-15% more than their stated costs for factors mentioned). With the lower HP builds you likely won't have issues with vacuum, etc. If you build a 500HP, 7,500RPM 302; don't expect your power brakes to work (should be common sense, but...).

The dyno numbers are always legit. I'm not a conspiracy theorist believing they are falsifying results. Yes, 325 HP at the flywheel is fairly easy to achieve, because its not a tall order. Its just barely over 1 HP/cubic inch. This discussion started with the OP looking for 1.15-1.3 HP/cubic inch. Where error occurs is thinking that if this combo made 325 HP then making another 25, or even 75 HP is easily achieved with a simple cam swap, etc. This 325HP combo is a good combo, for what it is. Its not a good basis for more power though, as its pretty well maxed out as it is and trying to chase more with the same parts will get expensive and disappointing.

The other important point is that you aren't typically going to be presented with a bunch of options parts wise, some of which may be better parts, and even at times better parts for less money. Hey, sometimes they do a lot of work for us. Want to see how compression ratio effects power? I've seen magazine builds where they did that. Flat tappet in hydraulic and solid vs. roller? Seen that too. Those types of tests can absolutely show you the pros and cons of engine design elements, and help you plan for a build by knowing what to expect. I simply advise being cautious with the single builds because of previously stated factors, and the fact that these builds are done on a timetable with very limited testing. All told I'll bet they spend at most two hours in the dyno with them. They monkey with timing and jetting sometimes, maybe see what a carb spacer you won't fit under your hood would do, and that's about it.

Will the engine they built make the power they did for close to the money the spent to build it? Yes. Could you build a more powerful engine for the same amount of money with different parts? Quite possibly.

Gaba · 1/03/2020 10:34 AM

man i love the discussions I have started .. truely! I am getting close to sending the block to a machine shop and getting them to clean and prep the block for me .. Taking previous advice.. I am not going to go with the machine shops I mentioned earlier.. instead.. I am leaning towards Richard's machine shop or may be Wells.

6sally6 · 1/03/2020 11:10 AM

Most have a price list of what they charge for each service (at least mine did!) If both are good then I would compare prices for same service.....compare wait time....closeness to you.....etc.
They are a well of advice too. That's were I learned about turning the pistons the opposite direction.....how much to get the heads shaved to get my desired CR.....do I really need to have the assembly balanced....do I really need to use a hone plate when boring...do I need to have the block zero decked...etc.
You will need to supply them a piston so they can bore the block correctly and tell them what type of rings you plan to use. I had my guys install new cam bearings but I did the final cleaning of the block.
Just a few things to look at when comparing shops
6sal6

Gaba · 1/03/2020 11:44 AM

so... here is what I am ending up with I think for now... looking on the internet, and doing some research and listening to some advice.. I found that I can build a stroker 331 with GT40 heads (redone with valve job already priced at a machine shop) for about the same price as just buying Edelbrock / AFR heads for the 5.0 302 build....

GT40 heads bought for $300
Machine shop quotes $300 min $550max if they need a lot of work.
331 stroker kit $1000 for unbalanced ones w/o flywheel or 1300 balanced w/flywheel
------------------------------------------------------------------
$1600 min-- 2150 max

Machine shop cost is a wash for either option.. Hardware required is still the same for either option..

If I buy a 331 stroker kit, I can possibly sell the brand new pistons and bearings I have here in boxes to recover some of the cost.. ($100?)

That then gives me a strong bottom end to build up on later.. Better low end torque to along with my 3.25 rear end.. PLUS room to grow with the AFR / Edelbrock aluminum heads later..

I have sourced some GT40 3 bar heads that look to have been redone with no carbon buildup, and I dont think they got used at all since they got rebuilt as they havesurface rust on clean machined areas... Be that as it may they are going to need new springs to match the cam .. so they will go to a machine shop anyway..

I know this is taking a little bit of a left turn from where I started this thread.. but I did not know stroking to 331 was an option..

Now ..

depending on if the block needs a bore or not.. Lets say it does not.. is there much difference between 327 and 331 ?

If it requires a bore, i will have it bored .030 over and just build a 331...

you see any blind spots?

let the sparks fly! :D

Last edited by Gaba (1/03/2020 12:51 PM)

6sally6 · 1/03/2020 12:13 PM

I bored mine 30 over and now........wish I had gone just 20. Once you go 30...........the block should probably not bored any more. With 20 it leaves you a little sump'in to play with the next build(FARRRRRRR in the future we hope!)Also gives just a smidgin more block/cylinder wall stiffness when building your 331.

The difference between a 327 and a 302 will be substantial!(under statement)...between 327 and 331....ehhh prolly not. You are gonna be too busy trying to keep it straight to notice. It will take your breath away!!!!!!

PS.......With the increase in cu. in. AND the 3.25 gear (AND engine vacuum) do NOT under cam that thang! You will have sooooo much more bottom end torque than what you have now.... it would be hard to over cam it IMHO.
Definatly use TWO hands when you "squeeze it" because it will get away from you QUICKLY!!
6s6

Bolted to Floor · 1/03/2020 2:01 PM

I agree with Mike about not boring more than you have to. The blocks are not as plentiful as they used to be. If you call Scat direct, they can usually do some changes to the packages they offer to get a piston better suited to your needs and your desires compression ratio.

There won’t be that big of a difference in cubic inches between 10 over, 20 over, or 30 over pistons when it’s all said and done. Just tell them it’s a 331 they’ll understand. If you tell somebody it’s a 327, they may think you put a Chevy motor in it!

TKOPerformance · 1/03/2020 4:58 PM

And here we go down the rabbit hole. This is where most engine builds end up.

My own started in almost the same way. Refreshed 5.0 bottom end, top end kit from Trick Flow, etc. making 350HP.

I ended up with a 331 with 185 AFRs shooting for a minimum of 425HP.

If you are going to stroke it the GT40s are even less relevant than they were for a 350-400HP 302 build. Sure, if you want to run a marathon breathing through a straw go for it. I just wouldn't.

Bore the block. Bore it, bore it, bore it. Trying to get away without boring it makes even less sense now that you're investing in the bottom end. Its not tapered or out of round? Bore it. Its not worn? Bore it. Any machine shop seeing what you're investing in the engine that would tell you to skimp on boring it isn't one I'd trust. I get the whole leave meat for a future rebuild, that was my thinking originally too, but if this engine lasts 100k will you ever need to rebuild it? Unlikely, so start fresh with a perfect bore, get the best ring seal possible, have it last as long as possible, and make the most power possible. Its not about adding cubes. 4 cubes means nothing. The cubes come from stroking it. Its about spending a couple hundred bucks on the only thing in the engine you absolutely must have right to make power.

We are now building a different engine. Parts and plans need to be adjusted accordingly. To me, to spend the money to build a stroker and then saddle it with the same top end you'd put on the 302 is a mistake. This engine will be much happier with the 185 Renegade AFRs I run. You can make 400HP on a baby cam with those and 331 cubes. Or join me in the 425-450HP range with a bit more of an aggressive cam. Where's your power peak? 5,500 or 6,500? That's the difference between 400 and maybe 450HP.

All the talk about saving on this, iron heads, etc. I see through it. Many times we want to believe we'll be happy with less, but if we're honest we know we won't. In the end I just couldn't get excited about rebuilding a stock bottom end for a 5.0 Then I realized I was going to need to change injectors, fuel pump, TB, MAF, etc. to make 350HP, and that there was no cost difference to upsize those things to make 425-450. But if I went with the smaller stuff, wasn't happy, and then wanted to step up; I would end up buying all that stuff over again. So I reevaluated and decided to stick with the one and done theme. 425-450 will be enough, and if it isn't I simply add the nitrous the engine is already built to take.

red351 · 1/03/2020 6:32 PM

Stopping at 20 isn't going to cost less than 30. The 10 difference for the next rebuild isn't going to be enough to clean up the block. Early 302 may have enough meat for a 40 or 60 bore, besides your going to be old with your hair falling out, blind in one eye and can't see out the other by the time it's needs another rebuild

6sally6 · 1/03/2020 6:44 PM

red351 wrote:
Stopping at 20 isn't going to cost less than 30. The 10 difference for the next rebuild isn't going to be enough to clean up the block. Early 302 may have enough meat for a 40 or 60 bore, besides your going to be old with your hair falling out, blind in one eye and can't see out the other by the time it's needs another rebuild

Good point Rich!!.......I have all my hairs and two good eyes butt we seem to reach a point(when you get elderly) were crawling around under an old car just ain't as much fun as it usta be 50 years ago!
On second thought.......I believe 30 over pistons (the most common size I'm sure) may be cheaper than 10/20 over.
And its true......when the engine gets "wore-out" enough to need a rebuild 10 over ain't gonna clean it up enough anyway. Might......gain a little more cylinder wall stiffness at 20 over-compared to 30 over butt....I don't know!
Good points though.
6sal6

6sally6 · 1/03/2020 7:23 PM

Gaba.....are you getting a stroker "KIT"?.....or are you ordering separate pieces? Sometimes you can do just as well(price-wise) and get "better" pieces. Eagle crank but maybe Keith Black hyper pistons as an example.
Just wondering and giving a BTTT
6sally6

Toploader · 1/03/2020 7:35 PM

6sally6 wrote:
Great discussion about engine building!

I agree! You guys are very knowledgeable on this stuff, so this post is a great read.
Amazing how much HP can be gained from a new set of heads. Nearly tempting to just hang the expense and do it...

lowercasesteve · 1/03/2020 11:25 PM

Stevo wrote:
6sally6 wrote:
Great discussion about engine building!
I agree! You guys are very knowledgeable on this stuff, so this post is a great read.
Amazing how much HP can be gained from a new set of heads. Nearly tempting to just hang the expense and do it...

Do I see scope creep floating in the air? Join the crowd.

TKOPerformance · 1/04/2020 7:56 AM

I've built strokers both ways, kits and assembling one from individual components. In my experience kits are a little cheaper, unless you go eBay, but they you have to be careful because there is so much fake stuff on eBay. Another option is hit Craigslist and see if you can find someone's unfinished project. I did that with my 347 and got a ready to assemble 347 (Eagle kit) and a fully machined block (all directly from a machine shop) for about $200 more than the cost of the kit. I saved at least $750, and still got what I wanted.

Piston wise, its up to you. IMO a real performance engine needs forged pistons. Hypereutectics are nice because they run quiet, but they don't stand up well to boost or nitrous, and can even be a a liability with a lean tuneup. OEM performance applications get away with them because they can protect them with the electronics. On a carb engine you don't have that ability, and since the setup won't adjust for weather, altitude, etc. its entirely possible to take a nice power tune and turn it into a lean tune if the temperature drops way down, or you get some bad gas and rattle the engine a bit.

I went with a DSS stoker kit for my 331 with their top of the line forged pistons (it was a promo and they were basically free, they are overkill for this engine for sure). Not necessary for an NA 331 with EFI, BUT if spray enters the picture I know I don't have to worry. I also run their bottom end girdle and studs in everything for the same reason.

Rudi · 1/04/2020 11:59 AM

I got my 331 Scat stroker kit from CNC Motorsports, cast steel crank, forged 9.1-1 SRP pistons, I beam rods.I used Clevite 77 bearings and ARP hardware.
I chose the option of unbalanced because I wanted all of my rotating parts available to be done at a respected local shop.
At the time I was told Scat had a better reputation than Eagle for their accuracy and quality control on main and throw bearing dimensions.
IIRC both Scat and Eagle cranks are forged/cast offshore but only Scat are finished in the US.

TKOPerformance · 1/04/2020 5:55 PM

I got my DSS kit unbalanced for the same reason. Balancing really needs to be done with the flywheel/flexplate and balancer you will run. I had the balance job done locally at the same machine shop that did all my other work.

I would say SCAT tends to be thought of as higher quality, but I've got an Eagle crank in my 383 that I've had zero issues with either during assembly or after the fact. Bearing clearances were spot on. That said, the crank is a 4340 forging, so I can't speak to the quality of the lower end cast components.

I'd also recommend checking out DSS. The same kit I bought is now available for less than $1,200 with the upgraded pistons. I paid more for mine, though shipping will also add to the cost, but I paid $71 for shipping. Here's a link:

https://shop.dssracing.com/331_SX_rotating_kit_p/ra331sxu.htm

Gaba · 1/04/2020 6:04 PM

Piston choice .......... so many to choose from .. flat top ..? 6cc 13cc 18cc on and on....

I am going to be running gt40 heads on this motor For now but upgrading as I go... what compression ratio do I shoot for? What pistons do I opt for that cr..? And keeping PTV clearance in mind

Gt40 3 bar heads is what I have .

Last edited by Gaba (1/04/2020 6:05 PM)

Rudi · 1/04/2020 6:55 PM

GT 40 or 40p, there is a difference,, the p has smaller combustion chambers.

TKOPerformance · 1/04/2020 7:13 PM

GT40 heads (3 bars, GT40Ps have 4) have about a 63cc chamber stock. If they need to be milled it will get smaller. BUT, there's no point running a lot of compression on an iron headed, carbed engine that won't breath at high RPM anyway. 9:1 is about max. On a 331 (assuming that's still on) you'll need at least a 15cc dish volume with a zero deck height and a compressed HG thickness of 0.030".

The only way to know about PTV clearance for sure is to check it with clay at mock up. You'll need a solid lifter to do it. Also, get HGs that can be reused a couple times like MLS, etc.

You're not going to run much cam anyway at 9:1 and an engine that's going to be done reving at 5,500RPM on its best day.

I hear you that you already have the GT40s, but that's what eBay is for...

I seriously wouldn't plan to build an engine now and swap heads later. You'll either be tied to pedestal rockers, or have to buy new rockers. You'll be swapping the cam as well or the new heads are going to have a marginal effect for their expense. You'll be wanting it to rev now, so the carb is probably going to be too small as well. Possibly the intake isn't going to be right either. The whole top half of the engine will be useless except as what you can get for the used parts, which IME is at best 50% of their cost new, but usually less.

If this iteration of the engine will make you happy, I wish you the best. If it won't, don't bother building it. It'll end up staying that way because it works.

Last edited by TKOPerformance (1/04/2020 7:14 PM)

Gaba · 1/04/2020 7:34 PM

TKOPerformance wrote:
GT40 heads (3 bars, GT40Ps have 4) have about a 63cc chamber stock. If they need to be milled it will get smaller. BUT, there's no point running a lot of compression on an iron headed, carbed engine that won't breath at high RPM anyway. 9:1 is about max. On a 331 (assuming that's still on) you'll need at least a 15cc dish volume with a zero deck height and a compressed HG thickness of 0.030".

The only way to know about PTV clearance for sure is to check it with clay at mock up. You'll need a solid lifter to do it. Also, get HGs that can be reused a couple times like MLS, etc.

You're not going to run much cam anyway at 9:1 and an engine that's going to be done reving at 5,500RPM on its best day.

I hear you that you already have the GT40s, but that's what eBay is for...

I seriously wouldn't plan to build an engine now and swap heads later. You'll either be tied to pedestal rockers, or have to buy new rockers. You'll be swapping the cam as well or the new heads are going to have a marginal effect for their expense. You'll be wanting it to rev now, so the carb is probably going to be too small as well. Possibly the intake isn't going to be right either. The whole top half of the engine will be useless except as what you can get for the used parts, which IME is at best 50% of their cost new, but usually less.

If this iteration of the engine will make you happy, I wish you the best. If it won't, don't bother building it. It'll end up staying that way because it works.

If the things stayed the same just cause they worked , I wouldn’t have done over half the projects on the stang

I have room to grow .. and with this AOD, I’m never getting to 5500 anyway..

Don’t think TKO that I haven’t taken your advice .. I know you think I haven’t . But I love room to grow and 331 build with my same budget gives me PLENTY room to grow that 302 (5.0) wouldn’t have . So don’t get worried about that... :D

This car will never be “done” .. couple years of fun with this engine 331 with gt40 heads and I’ll be adding heads and all that.

For now, i would rather go with iron heads than Chinese heads... Chinese heads are all I could have afforded, and I would rather have a sure shot head that won’t kill the engine while being a “breathing straw to run a marathon” :D haha .. I think you may be able to appreciate that. My current setup is coming to its end and I’d rather not keep running it for much longer .. it’s just not cutting it . (Also it’ll keep sucking me in to spend more money on what’s in the car to make it run “better”, all the while I could just build a 331 with that money ...

Raymond_B · 1/04/2020 7:42 PM

I think it'll be fun, and it's not like you cannot change anything Heck isn't that hotrodding?

red351 · 1/04/2020 8:13 PM

What stops an AOD from reaching 5500. I must have a bad one.

TKOPerformance · 1/04/2020 8:28 PM

Gaba wrote:
TKOPerformance wrote:
GT40 heads (3 bars, GT40Ps have 4) have about a 63cc chamber stock. If they need to be milled it will get smaller. BUT, there's no point running a lot of compression on an iron headed, carbed engine that won't breath at high RPM anyway. 9:1 is about max. On a 331 (assuming that's still on) you'll need at least a 15cc dish volume with a zero deck height and a compressed HG thickness of 0.030".

The only way to know about PTV clearance for sure is to check it with clay at mock up. You'll need a solid lifter to do it. Also, get HGs that can be reused a couple times like MLS, etc.

You're not going to run much cam anyway at 9:1 and an engine that's going to be done reving at 5,500RPM on its best day.

I hear you that you already have the GT40s, but that's what eBay is for...

I seriously wouldn't plan to build an engine now and swap heads later. You'll either be tied to pedestal rockers, or have to buy new rockers. You'll be swapping the cam as well or the new heads are going to have a marginal effect for their expense. You'll be wanting it to rev now, so the carb is probably going to be too small as well. Possibly the intake isn't going to be right either. The whole top half of the engine will be useless except as what you can get for the used parts, which IME is at best 50% of their cost new, but usually less.

If this iteration of the engine will make you happy, I wish you the best. If it won't, don't bother building it. It'll end up staying that way because it works.
If the things stayed the same just cause they worked , I wouldn’t have done over half the projects on the stang

I have room to grow .. and with this AOD, I’m never getting to 5500 anyway..

Don’t think TKO that I haven’t taken your advice .. I know you think I haven’t . But I love room to grow and 331 build with my same budget gives me PLENTY room to grow that 302 (5.0) wouldn’t have . So don’t get worried about that... :D

This car will never be “done” .. couple years of fun with this engine 331 with gt40 heads and I’ll be adding heads and all that.

For now, i would rather go with iron heads than Chinese heads... Chinese heads are all I could have afforded, and I would rather have a sure shot head that won’t kill the engine while being a “breathing straw to run a marathon” :D haha .. I think you may be able to appreciate that. My current setup is coming to its end and I’d rather not keep running it for much longer .. it’s just not cutting it . (Also it’ll keep sucking me in to spend more money on what’s in the car to make it run “better”, all the while I could just build a 331 with that money ...

You do see the circular logic in this, right? You don't want to spend more money on the current engine, but won't have a problem doing the same thing with the new one. I just keep hearing "there's never enough time or money to do something right, but always enough to do it twice."

And sure, is a project ever really done? Usually not in past experience, but I also find that's because of lackluster planning, trying to hit a moving target, and budget constraints that are more imagined than real. I suppose we'll see. My '89 GT is the acid test for this for me. Its a project that's been planned (and replanned ), cost tracked, etc. to yield a desired result. Will I ultimately be happy with it? I honestly can't say, but I think I CAN honestly say I'll be happier with it than with any other vehicle I've done thus far.

Gaba · 1/04/2020 8:56 PM

red351 wrote:
What stops an AOD from reaching 5500. I must have a bad one.

Lol you are funny.. ofcourse I can hold first or second and reach that, but for me , I don’t do that

Gaba · 1/04/2020 9:05 PM

TKOPerformance wrote:
Gaba wrote:
TKOPerformance wrote:
GT40 heads (3 bars, GT40Ps have 4) have about a 63cc chamber stock. If they need to be milled it will get smaller. BUT, there's no point running a lot of compression on an iron headed, carbed engine that won't breath at high RPM anyway. 9:1 is about max. On a 331 (assuming that's still on) you'll need at least a 15cc dish volume with a zero deck height and a compressed HG thickness of 0.030".

The only way to know about PTV clearance for sure is to check it with clay at mock up. You'll need a solid lifter to do it. Also, get HGs that can be reused a couple times like MLS, etc.

You're not going to run much cam anyway at 9:1 and an engine that's going to be done reving at 5,500RPM on its best day.

I hear you that you already have the GT40s, but that's what eBay is for...

I seriously wouldn't plan to build an engine now and swap heads later. You'll either be tied to pedestal rockers, or have to buy new rockers. You'll be swapping the cam as well or the new heads are going to have a marginal effect for their expense. You'll be wanting it to rev now, so the carb is probably going to be too small as well. Possibly the intake isn't going to be right either. The whole top half of the engine will be useless except as what you can get for the used parts, which IME is at best 50% of their cost new, but usually less.

If this iteration of the engine will make you happy, I wish you the best. If it won't, don't bother building it. It'll end up staying that way because it works.
If the things stayed the same just cause they worked , I wouldn’t have done over half the projects on the stang

I have room to grow .. and with this AOD, I’m never getting to 5500 anyway..

Don’t think TKO that I haven’t taken your advice .. I know you think I haven’t . But I love room to grow and 331 build with my same budget gives me PLENTY room to grow that 302 (5.0) wouldn’t have . So don’t get worried about that... :D

This car will never be “done” .. couple years of fun with this engine 331 with gt40 heads and I’ll be adding heads and all that.

For now, i would rather go with iron heads than Chinese heads... Chinese heads are all I could have afforded, and I would rather have a sure shot head that won’t kill the engine while being a “breathing straw to run a marathon” :D haha .. I think you may be able to appreciate that. My current setup is coming to its end and I’d rather not keep running it for much longer .. it’s just not cutting it . (Also it’ll keep sucking me in to spend more money on what’s in the car to make it run “better”, all the while I could just build a 331 with that money ...
You do see the circular logic in this, right? You don't want to spend more money on the current engine, but won't have a problem doing the same thing with the new one. I just keep hearing "there's never enough time or money to do something right, but always enough to do it twice."

And sure, is a project ever really done? Usually not in past experience, but I also find that's because of lackluster planning, trying to hit a moving target, and budget constraints that are more imagined than real. I suppose we'll see. My '89 GT is the acid test for this for me. Its a project that's been planned (and replanned ), cost tracked, etc. to yield a desired result. Will I ultimately be happy with it? I honestly can't say, but I think I CAN honestly say I'll be happier with it than with any other vehicle I've done thus far.

Spending money to upgrade and spending money to fix a bad engine aren’t the same.. and not similar logic.. and budget constraints are very real ..

I appreciate your advice but you can’t tell me I am wrong if I don’t have the money to build it one way... you say wait two more years to build it that way.. I say build it this was with the money I have so I can drive and have fun with the car now ... while I come up with more cash later to upgrade something for more power on a trusted short block.

Rather than having the car sit there collecting dust and frustrating me for more years , I can get it on the road a ton better than I have it now with lots of room to grow ... how is that not better than me waiting couple more years to build this engine While car sits there not enjoyable reliable , waiting on the motor ... ?

While I don’t disagree on all the math and hp rating you are putting out , and yes do it once do it right , with $4500 and 2 more years of saving that .. and all the while completely ignoring the user who this car is for. If the user is happy with it or is the user just chasing a never ending project that never hits the road and gets enjoyed ..?

Index » FYI Ford, Classic Mustang Tech Discussion » 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

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red351 wrote:

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

6sally6 wrote:

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

Stevo wrote:

6sally6 wrote:

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

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TKOPerformance wrote:

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

Gaba wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

red351 wrote:

Re: 5.0 build for 350-400 hp

TKOPerformance wrote:

Gaba wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

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