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2/24/2020 11:15 AM  #1


Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

After a budget build 5.0 roller tunnelled into a 331 stroker, and further into a 347 stroker build .. . Budget still being kept in mind, deals were made ,lot of overthinking, pricing way too many shops, I nailed all the specifics down.

Wayne Calvert Precision Engines did all the machine work. SCAT rotating assembly, with Hypereutectic 7cc Pistons, Howards Cam (221275-12), Edelbrock 60399 aluminum heads, building for about 10:1 or less compression

The engine is back from the machine shop all cleaned, with cam bearings/ freeze plugs, Clearanced for the 347, Align honed, bored over 030, balanced..
All parts are ordered, and except for the cam, its all here!
One of the heads does need new valve springs, which I will source soon.

Next steps.. I will start documenting the build ..

Deck height & (i'll straight edge check the head mating surface on the engine, if its good enough, I will leave it as is)
Clean
Paint
put together the fun puzzle..

For anyone wondering, this build, with using existing intake, existing 4 barrel carb, and keeping  all existing V belted accessories, is about $3700 including everything (block, heads, rotating assembly, gaskets EVERYTHING ) bought and machine shop work done. I could possibly have pulled it off a bit cheaper but I went with best of what I could afford.

Tools needed as I see it:
Ring Compressor
Valve Spring Compressor
Checker spring
Pushrod length checker
Torque Wrench
PlastiGauge
Engine building Grease

So who of y'all can I borrow the top 4 tools from ? (ring compressor, valve spring compressor, checker spring, and pushrod length checker) ?

Am I missing anything?

Last edited by Gaba (2/24/2020 11:20 AM)


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
 

2/24/2020 12:49 PM  #2


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

How long can you wait, or do you want to pay shipping?  I have a 4.030" tapered ring compressor and a pushrod length checker for factory style roller cams you can borrow.  I could bring them to the bash, or mail them if you want to pay round trip shipping.  PM me if you want to borrow them. 

 

2/24/2020 6:12 PM  #3


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

I would have the machine shop set up the valve springs on both heads, as well as check the block/head mating surface. Why bring the block home to check it and then take it back to the machine shop?   

Surely they already checked it if they went ahead and did all the other work??  Including cleaning, which would have to be done again.

Plastigage... is consumable, thus impossible to borrow.  Oreillys or Summit sells it under $5.  All you need is some that measures .001 to .003 range.

I would loan you my ring compressor, but it is not the best type for a novice to use.  They are cheap.  Just buy one or get the loaner that was offered.

Torque wrench.   Harbor Freight has 1/2” drive clicker type very reasonable and all test sources I have read say it is very reliable.

Pushrod length checker.  Cut an old pushrod in two pieces. Remove 1/4”” of the length at the cut.  Thread both pieces for 1/4” threads.  Use a piece of a 1/4” bolt or all-thread rod to screw the two pieces back together.  That gives you an adjustable length pushrod you can put in the engine and set to the correct length. Once determined, simply measure the length of it and buy 16 in that size. You will need a lifter tat does not collapse to test pushrod length. One that has had oil pressure through it while checking.  Or take an old lifter apart, pack it full of jbweld and reassemble and let dry to mimic a solid lifter
Before you go through that trouble, put a stock 5.0 one in and test it for fit. It will likely be just fine.

I will be in Frisco this weekend for Logan’s birthday.  MAYBE can break loose for an hour.

Last edited by MS (2/24/2020 6:18 PM)


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

2/24/2020 7:40 PM  #4


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Many moons-ago...I made a solid lifter out of a broom handle. For the limited use it got it worked fine.
Since you are "experiencing" the full gamit of engine building/assembly(and good fer ye!) borrow/rent/buy a degree wheel/dial indicator(and magnetic stand... tanx BB)) and degree your camshaft. Might even read-up about  the +'s and -'s of advancing the cam timing first. IF you do degree it you will need an adjustable/indexable timing gear set. Not much more than a hi-po roller timing chain set.
I advanced my cam timing and it sure feels to me like a good move.
Read about it and then decide.
6sally6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

2/24/2020 9:22 PM  #5


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Gaba, I have an adjustable push rod that I made for checking PR length.  I also have a pair of solid guts for the Ford roller hyd. lifters that I also fabricated.  I used these for accurate cam indexing.  I also have a 12" degree wheel which is invaluable for cam indexing.  Also a couple of other home-brew pieces that I would be happy to loan.  A K-D plyers type ring compressor too.

BB
 

Last edited by Bullet Bob (2/24/2020 9:24 PM)


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

2/25/2020 2:26 AM  #6


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

I would advise using only a tapered ring compressor.  IME they are much easier to use, and have about zero chance of getting a ring hung up and breaking it trying to force it into the bore.  Using a tapered compressor I'm able to push the pistons into the bores with two fingers.  The only downside to them is they only fit one bore size, but as it turns out I've yet to need a size other than 4.030" on 3 different engine builds.

There's two schools of thought on changing cam timing.  The first is that advancing the timing drops the RPM where peak torque is made, and gives you more power in the RPM band you use.  The second is that the cam companies already know this, and modern cams are ground such that they should just be installed straight up.  Basically the idea that you would need to play with the timing is outdated.

Regardless to which school you subscribe, if you feel the need to change timing by more than 4 degrees you should just get a different cam.  Also, whether you decide to adjust the timing or not, you should still degree in the cam to verify that the installed intake centerline is the same as what's listed on the cam card. 

A quick note on degreeing cams, with the typical stuff we use to verify cam timing there's a fair amount of hysteresis.  That is, the methods are not 100% repeatable due to flex, etc.  Its not uncommon to get a reading, run the crank around twice and suddenly get a slightly different reading.  Typically these variations will not be more than 1-2 degrees.  My advice is don't drive yourself nuts trying to make it come out perfect every time.  1-2 degrees given piston dwell time with a stroker, and the hysteresis present in the measuring fixtures is pretty darn good.  Keep in mind that even with a 12" degree wheel each degree is only about 1/10th of an inch.  It doesn't take much at all to get such a slight variation.  Trying to "correct" cam timing of less than 2 degrees is an exercise in utter futility anyway, and it won't make much difference.  A 2 degree shift moves peak torque 300RPM, so do the math on 1 degree. 

Finally, remember that shifting peak torque lower in the RPM band, also lowers peak power in the same way.  Degreeing a cam isn't some magic way to both keep the upper RPM limit AND bolster low end torque.  It doesn't suddenly give you variable valve timing.  It just changes how soon the cam "comes on". 

 

2/25/2020 9:42 AM  #7


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Gaba,
You learn by doing and then having the satisfaction of saying you built your own engine.
So, I say, continue with your plan and don't let the nay sayers, IMHO types and mega paragraph posters get you down. Call or PM your supportive comrades for assistance and you'll do fine. When you finish, let's compare notes....

 

2/25/2020 10:00 AM  #8


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

TKO

I found a tapered 4.030 piston installer/ring compressor for a pretty great price on amazon, I actually was thinking of trying that .. thanks for the heads up .. and good to know about the timing of the cam

6sal6 .. yes I think the timing gear set i got is adjustable, and I will definitely be degree-ing the cam. Now do I know what I am doing? No ... but i never do till the day or hour before I am doing it heehee

josh-kebob.. Yes sir!! I am going to keep this post updated and keep my Texts going to everyone!! :D Will get this built slow and right!

Bullet-Bob-- once again i will be borrowing your tool set for everything I dont have .. your tools may be my "lucky charm" hahahahah :D

Last edited by Gaba (2/25/2020 10:01 AM)


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

2/25/2020 11:08 AM  #9


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

You folks are getting into the fun stuff now! I use the tapered style ring compressors and have on that is slightly adjustable. I always set it with one of the rings  to slide easily through and make sure it is set just smaller than the bore. Never a problem! 
I also have a box full of offset cam keys I have made over the years. Only get them out when on Dyno. I don't usually buy an off the shelf cam since I always talk to the tech guys at Crane or other good supplier. Only see small gains with the index change, but since the class I run is so competitive, it makes a difference. I never would bother for a street build, just go bigger! No replacement for displacement and the additional thump is worth it.

 

2/25/2020 3:44 PM  #10


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

a ring expander is a good thing to have too. May be able to rent one from parts house. Used for putting the rings onto the pistons.
Now..........I just twisted them on from the top to the bottom (for oil rings)  butt that really ain't the best way because it could break them or 'spring" them outta shape. FYI
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

2/25/2020 4:17 PM  #11


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

6sally6 wrote:

a ring expander is a good thing to have too. May be able to rent one from parts house. Used for putting the rings onto the pistons.
Now..........I just twisted them on from the top to the bottom (for oil rings) butt that really ain't the best way because it could break them or 'spring" them outta shape. FYI
6sal6

Absolutely.  Rings can and and will break if you try to "spiral" them on by hand.  I learned that the hard way. 

Degreeing a cam isn't hard with the right tools and an understanding of what it is you're doing.  There are plenty of good videos and explanations online about it.  On a street engine though, as DC said, its just another thing I check to make sure its within spec.  I haven't moved a street cam in years, and every one I've checked has been within 1-1.5 degrees of its card.  BUT, its like not checking the bearings with plastigauge.  I'd rather know now than find out the hard way with the engine built and in the car that something was WAY off. 
 

 

3/05/2020 2:57 PM  #12


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Hey Gaba!.........You took the block to the machine shop yet?
This is a very good read!!!  These guys seem to know A LOT about engines.


https://www.speed-talk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7551&sid=b08f87a581a728fea3104dcf54cfce4d

6sally6

Last edited by 6sally6 (3/05/2020 2:59 PM)


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

3/05/2020 4:49 PM  #13


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

I'd always advise using a torque plate for honing.  The cost is negligible.  I've never seen or read anything that would lead me to believe it was worse than not using one.  At worst it maybe makes no difference (I wouldn't doubt anyone from Joe Sherman, or Joe himself (provided that's really who it was)), but I'd still use one.

There was a bit of misconception about cross hatch though.  Cross hatch isn't some kind of indicator of bore health.  A freshly honed engine will show almost none.  The cross hatch you see if the product of tiny fingers of metal being ripped out of the lines cut by the grit in the hone.  After a fresh hone all those fingers lie flat, so you don't see much, if any cross hatch.  After some miles of the piston rings ripping those fingers out you see the cross hatch very pronounced.  I would conclude that the guy who saw the head bolt lines misinterpreted what he saw.  The reason the lines were shiny wasn't that they had been worn, but the exact opposite.  The bolts pulled the block up in those areas, which actually caused less piston ring contact instead of more.  That's why he saw cross hatch everywhere except the lines.  They weren't worn smooth; they were the only areas that hadn't been worn enough to show the cross hatch.  I'm not taking credit for any of this, I got this from reading Smokey Yunick's book.  He talked for pages about cylinder wall preparation and his various experiments with it, including cutting blocks in half to look at the cross sections under a microscope.  I'm quite confident he really knew what was going on with bore prep, but people just keep parroting the same old lines about what cross hatch means.  Its worth noting that personally, I've yet to tear down an engine where I couldn't see cross hatch in the bores, even on high mileage, worn out engines. 

 

3/05/2020 6:53 PM  #14


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

I was surprised about the increase in power when using a torque plate vs with out a plate.  I know its all about ring seal butt to make a noticeable difference in power......wow!
My guy years ago said just what others said.........torqueing the head bolts down before honing "is-as-good-as" using a torque plate.
Obviously not right.
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

3/06/2020 5:53 AM  #15


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Smokey was also the guy who said ring seal was the most important thing in making power.  He said everything else could be perfect, but if the rings didn't seal you ain't got #$%^.  Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency.  Not very efficient if you're blowing power down into the crankcase past leaking rings. 

 

3/11/2020 11:20 PM  #16


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

3/12/2020 8:08 AM  #17


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Torque plates are great! I haven't done a motor without one since the 60's. The one in the pic looks jus like my SBF one. I always use the fasteners I am going to use for the build though. I keep a bunch of spacers so I can get the proper torque with the long bolts/studs.

 

3/12/2020 8:47 AM  #18


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Yep that’s my engine getting honed at the machine shop.. They used torque plates


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

3/13/2020 8:26 PM  #19


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Step 1 :
Close the dip stick tube hole on the later model 5.0 block, as my dip stick is going to be through the timing cover. The tools and hardware needed is all in the pic .. 1/8-27 pipe thread tap, and bronze 1/8-27 plug, with thread sealant


upload

Step2:
Thread chase every bolt hole small or big to remove any crap built up in it .. esp the oil pan and the main bearing bolts were very dirty! But that is now done

Last edited by Gaba (3/13/2020 8:28 PM)


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

3/13/2020 8:41 PM  #20


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Water pump and timing cover bolt hole threads, too!
And bellhousing, and anything else with threads.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

3/13/2020 8:54 PM  #21


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

MS wrote:

Water pump and timing cover bolt hole threads, too!
And bellhousing, and anything else with threads.

 
Yes did them all!!


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

3/14/2020 9:06 AM  #22


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

I KNOW you used a bottom tap(flat on the bottom) instead of a regular tap.
One thing I did and 'think' its a good idea was......replaced the assorted/different length bolts in the front/water pump area with studs! No more trial and error...try this one/try that one hunt for the correct bolt. Only wished I did this many/many years ago. Less hassle fer sure. Use plenty of anti seize and your golden. (or not!)
6sal6
Keep the pics coming....luv'in it!


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

3/14/2020 9:38 AM  #23


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

What he's got there are cleaning taps.  They are flat bottomed, but don't actually remove metal.  The danger with running an actual tap into those holes is that if the tap gets off course, or hits an obstruction that is really hard it can actually do more damage than good.  I bought a set of cleaning taps years ago that has metric and SAE fine and coarse.  These are my first step in cleaning, along with some Kroil for lubrication.  Plenty of brake clean and compressed air to get all the junk they free up out of the hole (if blind).  If they hit something they won't go through then I have the option use a conventional tap, and if that should fail the last resort is Helicoiling. 

It's been rare that I've had to resort to anything more than those cleaning taps though since I started using them.  My set's is about 15 years old and I've only lost the 8mm one, which broke when I got too aggressive trying to straighten out a weld nut that was either welded into the frame rail crooked or trashed when they ran the bolt in crooked on the assembly line (rear sway bar mount for my WRX). 
 

 

3/18/2020 9:54 PM  #24


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Alright , so this is what I’ve done next... CC the one old head I had , to make sure it’s the same combustion chamber size.. which it is .. 60cc

Jegs economy CC kit .. cheap and easy to do ..

Level the head and pour dyed isopropyl alcohol with a measuring syringe into the vasoline and plexiglass sealed combustion chamber ..



If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

3/19/2020 8:01 AM  #25


Re: Stroker Build .. Gaba's 347

Man Gaba, you have one very understanding wife.  I don't matter how surgically clean I might make engine parts...they ain't gonna be worked on in Jean's kitchen!!!!.  Period!

BB


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

Board footera


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