FYI FORD - MustangSteve's Ford Mustang Forum
The Internet's Most Knowledgeable Classic Mustang Information
IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT CLASSIC FORD MUSTANGS, YOU HAVE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE!
MustangSteve has over 30 years of Mustang experience, having owned 30 of them and restored several others. With the help of other Mustangers, this site is dedicated to helping anyone wanting to restore or modify their Mustang.... THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS!!!!!
Visit MustangSteve's web site to view some of my work and find details for:
FYIFORD Contributors' PICTURES - Power Brake Retrofit Kits for 65-66 Stangs - Classic Mustang FAQ's by MustangSteve - How to wire in a Duraspark Ignition - Mustang Ride Height Pictures and Descriptions - Steel Bushings to fit Granada Spindles to Mustang Tie Rods - Visit my EBAY store MustangSteve Performance - How to Install Granada Disc Brakes MustangSteve's Disc Brake Swap Page - FYIFORD Acronyms for guide to all the acronyms used on this page - FYIFORD Important information and upcoming events

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

2/25/2020 4:43 PM  #1


Toe

Front end alignment questions. 
Currently at:
Castor: +4 degrees.
Camber: -.5 degrees.
Toe: 1/8" ???

My question is toe. How is this measured? Front to rear of the tire or something else? My shop manual states that toe should be 1/6" to 5/16", but from where is this measurement referenced. Obviously the point  of measurement makes a difference. 

The reason I ask is that I get front end shimmy near 70MPH depending on road surface. The shimmy was lessened years ago when replaced my radiator support that included the bottom crossmember, it was rotted out. Two years ago I installed Opentracker's Delrin monoballs in place of the rubber strut bushings and this helped a lot. https://opentrackerracing.com/product/racing-strut-rod-bushing-set-1967-1973-mustang/

Any insight would be helpful in ridding my 67 of high speed shimmy.
 

Last edited by RV6 (2/25/2020 4:50 PM)


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

2/25/2020 5:32 PM  #2


Re: Toe

An alignment problem won't cause a shimmy, typically that is a tire/wheel problem. When was the last time you had the wheels balanced?

 

2/25/2020 5:42 PM  #3


Re: Toe

So, when measuring toe, if you want toe in of 1/8" it means the measurement in the front is 1/8" less than the one in the rear.  This is measured from a common point of reference, say, outside of the outermost tread block on each tire, front, and rear.

Toe is only part of the steering situation though.  The centerlink needs to be centered.  I've read all kinds of crazy methods for this, but what 100% works is to just make sure your tie rods are the same length.  Then, when making adjustments, adjust each side equally.  If afterwards the wheel is off center, just pull it and reposition it.  It was probably reindexed years ago by some well meaning, but ignorant PO or shop. 

With the tie rods the same length and your measurements the way you want them the steering and toe is done.  I will say that 5/16" toe in or out is a lot IME.  Typically you will get scrubbing at anything over about 1/8" in slow turns when running toe in.  Toe in is best for all around driving and high speed stability.  The only place to run toe out would be a tight road coarse or track.  It makes the car twitchy, though turn in is improved (good for tight turns, scary everywhere else). 

I'm with Chaplin on this though, I don't think toe is your issue.  It sounds like tires to me.  I'd consider that carefully, how old are they, when was the last time they were balanced, etc.?  Tires can have plenty of tread and still be no good just from sitting past their expiration date.  Over time they break down internally and lead to all manner of bad handling. 

Last edited by TKOPerformance (2/25/2020 5:43 PM)

 

2/25/2020 6:29 PM  #4


Re: Toe

Tires are approaching 3 years old and have been balance more times than I can recall. I wish I could find a shop that could spin balance the tire on the vehicle like in the good ole days.

Last edited by RV6 (2/25/2020 6:31 PM)


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/25/2020 6:32 PM  #5


Re: Toe

Not only tire condition but wheel condition also. Jack up the car and check tire track the same way you check prop track with a nail in the end of a stick. Check both tire and wheel for round and track. If you find one out of track verify the disc/drum too.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

2/25/2020 7:19 PM  #6


Re: Toe

I've gotten shimmy with bad ball joints.  You might try checking it


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

2/25/2020 10:26 PM  #7


Re: Toe

Pop would place a jack stand in front of the tire and hold a scratch awl to the tire to scribe a mark as close to center as possible.......I had to spin the tire!! He used that for the toe measurement in front and back.

The alignments I’ve paid for on the Mustang provided a report showing 1/16” per side, not just an 1/8” overall.


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

2/26/2020 6:08 AM  #8


Re: Toe

If you have a different measurement front to rear, you either have toe in or toe out.  If it's 1/8" difference you have 1/8" toe whichever direction (in or out), or 1/16" per side.  You have made the wheels into a trapezoid.viewed from the top.  Even with both tie rods different lengths its still a trapezoid with the same toe in or out on both sides.  The car will track straight like this regardless, though your steering wheel may well be off center while its doing it, and you can still have a different amount of turning left vs. right.  The wheels are going to "find" straight ahead, because that's their natural tendency as its the path of least resistance;.  What will change is whether or not the center link is centered when going straight. 

Years ago I experiments with setting toe based on front vs. rear tires.  Using a string line, a true straight edge, or a laser you can pull a line from tire to tire.  You have to do this elevated so the bulge at the bottom of the tire doesn't mess with the results.  This doesn't work nearly as well as getting the tie rods the same length and adjusting evenly until you get the measurements you want for the desired toe.  If in doubt, try both methods. 
 

 

2/26/2020 8:32 AM  #9


Re: Toe

I usually put a board through both front windows and clamp the steering wheel where I want it going straight down the road before any toe setting. Then, just like I watched AJ Foyt in gasoline alley set the toe on his Indy winning racecar put the four stands and monofil fish line around the car at hub height. measure at front and back to hub center and play with the stands until you have a perfect rectangle centered around your car.
Now, you  can see if your front and rear axle positions are centered with the car or not (oval track racers don't always center things). Setting toe is easy now by measuring from string to rim at front and back of rim. 
OBTW I watched Mark Donohue do the same thing on his winning car at Indy.
Most of my experience with shimmy though had more to do with caster.
Anyway if you split your total toe evenly between and adjust both sides your car will go down the road straight with the steering wheel centered. If you do a lot of super slab driving you may want t add a little bias to account for road crown.

 

2/26/2020 11:03 AM  #10


Re: Toe

I usually take my car to this place that knows how to set up old cars with radial tires.
For 50 bucks It ain’t worth me crawling around under the car for hours on my hands and knees.


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

2/26/2020 3:41 PM  #11


Re: Toe

Probably nothing worn in the front suspension since it is all pretty new. I'll get the tires rotated and balanced before the Bash to see if that help.

As for Toe, I have some nice homebrew toe plates that make measuring toe easy. I understand toe and why we need it. I just don't know how to explain what my question is. 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/27/2020 6:25 AM  #12


Re: Toe

DC wrote:

I usually put a board through both front windows and clamp the steering wheel where I want it going straight down the road before any toe setting. Then, just like I watched AJ Foyt in gasoline alley set the toe on his Indy winning racecar put the four stands and monofil fish line around the car at hub height. measure at front and back to hub center and play with the stands until you have a perfect rectangle centered around your car.
Now, you  can see if your front and rear axle positions are centered with the car or not (oval track racers don't always center things). Setting toe is easy now by measuring from string to rim at front and back of rim. 
OBTW I watched Mark Donohue do the same thing on his winning car at Indy.
Most of my experience with shimmy though had more to do with caster.
Anyway if you split your total toe evenly between and adjust both sides your car will go down the road straight with the steering wheel centered. If you do a lot of super slab driving you may want t add a little bias to account for road crown.

I've used this method before, and on a  race car I agree, but on a street car I've found a couple issues.  First, it assumes the steering wheel is where its supposed to be.  IME on these 50 year old cars the wheel has often been moved because someone previously didn't center the centerlink, and/or the original index marking on the wheel was lost, or the wheel was replaced, etc.

Second, it assumes the tie rods are the same length, which I've also often found wasn't the case.

Third, if the axles aren't centered, which many times again, they aren't.  There's not a ton you can do about it without major work.  Its worth checking using this method for this reason alone, because if something is WAY off you can consider what it would take to fix it.  In a standard leaf sprung, stock style front end though there's not a ton you can do with simple adjustments. 

I can't say it won't work, but as usual, everyone has to use the method they find works best for them and their car. 
 

 

2/27/2020 9:56 AM  #13


Re: Toe

I don't know DC other than from what I read here, but I'm pretty sure he knows that the steering box needs to be centered before doing the toe. I'm guessing his box is centered when the steering wheel is in the straight ahead position.

RV6's question was whether the toe was set in degrees or inches, and that depending on the diameter of the tire, whether the difference in actual toe with a larger tire when set at 1/8" would matter in the degrees it was at, since it'd be different from a smaller diameter tire. Confused yet?

I set my alignment by first setting the rear axle thrust. I marked the center of the radiator cross member and dropped a plumb bob to the floor. From the axle end centers I dropped plumb bobs to the floor, and used triangulation to get the axle centered and 90° to the center line of the chassis.

Once the rear axle was in the  proper position I set the front end alignment. I started with a centered steering box, and measured to make sure the tie rods were the same length. Even using greased sheet metal plates as turn tables, sometimes when I turned the tie rod adjuster, that wheel remained straight, and the adjustment turned the steering box. This drove me nuts till I discovered what was happening.

I've thought of having the alignment checked at a shop. But since it handles great, tracks straight at over 100 without input from the driver, and the tires wear even, I figure I'll spend the saved time watching tv.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

2/27/2020 10:22 AM  #14


Re: Toe

Bearing Bob understands my question after an hour on the phone. I must have done something correct as the car tracks straight and has no abnormal wear patterns on the tires. Once I get it back on the ground I'll check the alignment again. I know the steering wheel is slightly off center so I'll take this into account as I play with the toe.

I'm always learning so I appreciate all the input.


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/27/2020 3:19 PM  #15


Re: Toe

Bearing Bob wrote:

I don't know DC other than from what I read here, but I'm pretty sure he knows that the steering box needs to be centered before doing the toe. I'm guessing his box is centered when the steering wheel is in the straight ahead position.

RV6's question was whether the toe was set in degrees or inches, and that depending on the diameter of the tire, whether the difference in actual toe with a larger tire when set at 1/8" would matter in the degrees it was at, since it'd be different from a smaller diameter tire. Confused yet?

I set my alignment by first setting the rear axle thrust. I marked the center of the radiator cross member and dropped a plumb bob to the floor. From the axle end centers I dropped plumb bobs to the floor, and used triangulation to get the axle centered and 90° to the center line of the chassis.

Once the rear axle was in the proper position I set the front end alignment. I started with a centered steering box, and measured to make sure the tie rods were the same length. Even using greased sheet metal plates as turn tables, sometimes when I turned the tie rod adjuster, that wheel remained straight, and the adjustment turned the steering box. This drove me nuts till I discovered what was happening.

I've thought of having the alignment checked at a shop. But since it handles great, tracks straight at over 100 without input from the driver, and the tires wear even, I figure I'll spend the saved time watching tv.

How were you able to make adjustments to where the axle housing was located? 
 

 

2/27/2020 4:01 PM  #16


Re: Toe

TKOPerformance wrote:

How were you able to make adjustments to where the axle housing was located? 

I got skills.
Triangulated 4 link.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

2/28/2020 8:57 AM  #17


Re: Toe

I always count turns lock right to lock left and set wheel in middle before tightening the clamps that hold the steering wheel centered. I put two punch marks on chassis where I can drop plum when I built the car to define car centerline. Rear axle and front suspension were installed to that line defined by those marks. That also makes rechecks easy until I fold the chassis up into a little ball someday.

 

Board footera


REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on.