IMO the Coyote swap is dead from the drive.  The modifications to the car are going to be extensive and the expense is going to be staggering to get the same power you can easily get from the current engine.

I'm always a fan of a stroker.  A friend of mine built a 351C stroker for a customer years ago.  It was crazy powerful, and it was in a '71-'73 car. 

Generally, I'm not a fan of reusing stock rods.  By the time you do everything to them you can typically buy a set of decent aftermarket rods.  I look at it this way, the rods are THE most stressed component in the engine.  Its a place I'd like some insurance.

Cam wise I'd go to a roller.  More area under the curve.

I would avoid the MSD 6AL.  I've had bad luck with them lasting.  If you want to use a spark box just use the 6A.  With an auto how are you going to manage to over rev it? 

With an engine this size, with this much potential, in a street drive vehicle I think a power adder is unnecessary.  A 408 stroker should be able to easily put out 500HP naturally aspirated.  Much beyond that and all you've done is create a vehicle that is more dangerous with no real benefit.  Street tires can only hold so much without AWD or a bunch of electronic trickery.  At some point he right pedal just becomes a tire spin pedal. 

The red car last dyno was 389 to the road surface. Torque I honestly don't remember unless I get the sheet out. 3.50 gearing and a some what mild cam that can be driven coast to coast, (and it has done that several times). It's all factory iron, nothing real special. It has about 40 grand in miles on it by this time. Yes it bored .30 over  non stroked. Forgive me if it sound like bragging, but that's the facts on paper.

It sounds like you have a great motor already, is the extra expense for more HP worth the cost?? Since it's your money, I like the unlimited budget model!! 

A stroker will be easy access to more HP and Torque. The guys above have give you some good advice already.

Somethings to keep in mind.

Build a new motor as you can, keep the car driving on the road as long as possible, swap over to new motor, then sell the old one or store it under the bench. 

Buy a new block, you will be money ahead. Cleveland blocks are getting harder to find in good condition. Most of them suffer from thin cylinder walls due to the manufacturing process, core shift, or both. If you get a used block, have it sonic checked. Thin cylinders maximized for HP and compression will split. I'm not sure what is considered too thin, do your research. 

Convert to a hydraulic roller cam. Too many horror stories about cam lobes going flat on break. Talk to someone that build them all the time to get a good recommendation. A custom grind won't be that much more over a shelf roller. Keep the cam somewhat tame to keep it drive able. 

Have you thought about a Windsor based stroker? It will be cheaper than a Cleveland. It may not have the same WOW factor though. 

Cleveland blocks are expensive everywhere, so I'm sure they are uber expensive in Sweden!

As for a cam, I would advise calling one of the major cam companies tech lines are getting their recommendation.  We can all look at catalogs and make an educated guess about lift, duration, centerline, etc., but its kind of like doing brain surgery with an axe.  The cam companies spend thousands of hours on the dyno every year.  We are never going to get anywhere near that level of knowledge or experience. 

I'm partial to Crane Cams.  They always pick up the phone, and I've used the cam they recommended on three different engine builds and always been satisfied. 

Things must have change the last 5 years. I gotten several given to me for free because they wanted windsors and didn't want no Cleveland taking up their garage space.

That's a mild cam for the Cleveland, They don't play by the same cam rules as others, but as a bread & butter daily driver it's not bad. Your original post, it sounded like you were looking for more and that cam you now have is not going to work. George likes a lot of lobe separation to keep overlap smaller. 351c needs a lot of initial timing so it's not a slug off the line. 10.5 CR is doable with factory close chamber head and 93 octane, so your alum. CC is a big plus. 
 Cleveland's always  response better with more duration as most would. If you are still running the cast exhaust manifolds, that's not good. A lot of bad things are going on inside at high rpm's. I had the spark plug ceramic blowout and the pieces found there way into other cylinders. Shorty headers are a big hp improvement and helps if you have some early engine detonation.

You already have 2.50" which is good for that 5 to 6000 rpm's that a Cleveland known for. Some will say that's 2.25 is plenty.. I try to redline ours to 6, but sometimes I forget to shift in time and it falls flat on its face around 6400

I'm just not a fan of roller cams as there more reason for failure, but maybe I would change my mind if I wiped a lobe off during a break ins. I'll just keep my fingers cross for now.

The cam I have works but I think it lacks the bottom, It starts from 2400-6000. I had the car dynoed with the stock 2v heads.and it put out 296 hp at the rear wheels. Then I went for the 2v CHI Heads and I probably got more. I that time I was runningan FMX Tranny, last year I went with the 4r70w instead. That last feeling when the car just pusches you back is missing. So more Torque that is what Im looing for, Everythinge else is there to match more HP and Torque, I just want to change the character of the engine. 

Here is a quick simulation in desktop dyno 
First my regular cam Howards vs my roller choice above



Now stroking the 351c to 408c with roller cam vs no stroke



Last is the George P cam vs the roller above. The GP is a flat tappet. 


The second should be enough :-)

Last edited by Mach173 (7/07/2020 11:04 AM)

Have you thought about advancing the CAM TIMING a couple more degrees?!  Instead of 106* center line go to 104* or maybe 102*. Advancing the cam timing gives more power at a lower RPM. (it MOVES the power range to begin at a lower RPM ex. 2000RPM to 5800 RPM.) 
Since it seems you have access to a dyno...this would make it easier to decide if going bigger on camshaft (or not) is the answer.
6sally6

red351 wrote:

Mine run like George example. I wish could show the dyno sheet (not smart enought) The best run was 389.6hp at 6325 av was (319.5 hp)  and torque peaked 382.7at 4580 av. (346.6 tq.) to the ground numbers
So somehow they came up with 448.0hp with 440.1 torque at the flywheel using the toploader 1to1. The torque pretty much flat line from 3500 to the peak (382.7 4580) rpm's and was down to about 365 by 5500. As I said before it falls flat on it's face at 6400 and the dyno showed it.
It's just an old school Lunati 0093. lift 536 in. 563 ex. Their cam card has a typo for ex lift that they may have corrected by now (18 years later).

If you compare your numbers against the dekstop dyno version would you say that its rather accurate of far from it ? The simulation is done with the 2v chi heads that flows nearly 300 cfm at 0.6 lift and compression is 10.1
Dual plane intake, 750 carb , Headders with mufflers.

So what you're seeing is that the roller that is good for a stock 351 is too small for a 408 stroker.  Use a bigger cam and that last combo makes even more power by keeping that flat tappet under the curve.  All things equal a roller is always going to outperform a flat tappet because they can use more aggressive ramps.  Its power you can use too.  Real world bottom end power. 

Did you put a single plane intake on the stroker to see how it liked it?  I would at least try it.  As engines get bigger and more powerful they tend to benefit from it.  Prevailing theory is that they lose low end, but IME that's not always true. 

Okay

Here is another 408c stroker with  more cam.  Single Plane vs Dual Plane

Hydraulic RollerBasic
RPM Range: 2000 to 6000
Valve Lift Intake: .576
Valve Lift Exhaust: .600
Duration Intake: 278
Duration Exhaust: 282
Duration at 050 Intake: 225
Duration at 050 Exhaust: 229

Above cam with 408c stroker single plane vs dualplane



Next my current cam in 408c vs the above cam, both dualplane
They are very similar.



Final

My current cam in my 351c vs stroking it to 408c


As Freiburger would say.. There is a lot of meat missing there :-)






 

Last edited by Mach173 (7/08/2020 8:07 AM)

Mach173 wrote:

6sally6 wrote:

Have you thought about advancing the CAM TIMING a couple more degrees?! Instead of 106* center line go to 104* or maybe 102*. Advancing the cam timing gives more power at a lower RPM. (it MOVES the power range to begin at a lower RPM ex. 2000RPM to 5800 RPM.)
Since it seems you have access to a dyno...this would make it easier to decide if going bigger on camshaft (or not) is the answer.
6sally6

Yes I have tried up to 4 inches of advance doesnt make much for the torque.

 
I think you missed something here. Mike was talking about advancing the camshaft, not the timing at the distributor. You need a multi keyway timing chain set to do that.  A nine position set would be the best. It gives you 8° retarded to 8° Advanced on 2° increments.

Bearing Bob wrote:

My advice based on stroking my 351w to 393, would be to run it as is. Unless you've got money and time to burn.

351w are normally very good to stroke. What happend ?

Last edited by Mach173 (7/08/2020 1:15 PM)