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10/08/2020 8:54 PM  #1


Big, big Mistake

BIG mistake!!!
I have been overwhelmed with repairs to the house. I also have been trying to sell off some of the Mustangs I acquired over the years with the idea that I would have plenty of time to work on them. Ain't  happening .So I hired a ??Mustang?? guy to replace the inner fenders on a 68. Easy job (with new radiator core support.
Well the work was OK. BUT he cut out the parts with the VIN numbers and discarded them. I did not notice until I started think about putting things back together.I have the vin numbers on the title. Is there anyone how can reproduce them so that I can weld them in where they belong?

 

10/08/2020 9:09 PM  #2


Re: Big, big Mistake

Did he replace all aprons? Are either of the two hidden vins left?
Edit ... the vin on the dash is the legal vin for a 68
http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/paint-body/1601-missing-vin-plate-thats-a-problem-on-1968-ford-mustang

Last edited by 50vert (10/08/2020 9:36 PM)


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

10/08/2020 11:15 PM  #3


Re: Big, big Mistake

Steve - on my 68 the  VIN is on a tag behind the windshield on the dash.


68 coupe - 351W, 4R70W, 9" 3.25 -- 65 convertible - 289 4v, C4, 8" 3.00
 

10/09/2020 6:59 AM  #4


Re: Big, big Mistake

     When i was in high school dad always drove a beater truck. He would buy one and we would fix it up. We would drive it for about a year, find another and start the process over again.
     In PA all title service had to be processed in Harrisburg. There was what they called a local messenger service,. you would do your title work there. They would go to Harrisburg 2 or 3 times a week, in a few days you would have your processed title back.
     Dad once bought a truck that wasn't running so we could not drive it to the messenger service. Usually someone at the service would take the title outside and verify the title you had matched the vehicle. The owner of the messenger service said; "take a pencil and piece of paper, put the paper over the tag inside the dash and rub the pincel over it to make an impression on the paper," the old owner, title and this paper was enough to prove we were transfering the proper title. Alittle more trusting back then.
      Anyway, when I bought my 66 out of state in NY, all I got was a bill of sale from the owner. He showed me it matched the vin #'s on the aprons. The car was stripped and in peices. At the time, I thought all cars in that error had windsield tags. A little nervous, but the price was good' so I took a chance and bought the car. 
     I took the car to the messenger service, now a new office just 1 mile from my house. The car in peices between the my trailer and truck bed, the young messenger service lady come out side to check the bill of sales matched the car. She thought there should be a tag by the windshield. I told her there was none there but showed her the stamps on the aprons. I guessed she must have figured no one would be stupid enough to steal this plie of parts and try to title it, so she processed the paper work. I did get a PA title but still kept the original bill of sales.
     I still thought I needed to file for a tag but I guess I learned something today.

Last edited by wsinsle (10/09/2020 7:01 AM)


If this forum can't fix it, it isn't broke.
 

10/10/2020 5:23 PM  #5


Re: Big, big Mistake

If you need to stamp one of the aprons just buy a set of number and letter stamps from Harbor Freight and do it yourself.  No one will ever know it wasn't original.  Its not like the people at the DMV, if they even looked at it, would ever know it was done by you and not Ford.  I wouldn't worry about it too much. 

 

10/13/2020 9:14 PM  #6


Re: Big, big Mistake

TKOPerformance wrote:

If you need to stamp one of the aprons just buy a set of number and letter stamps from Harbor Freight and do it yourself.  No one will ever know it wasn't original.  Its not like the people at the DMV, if they even looked at it, would ever know it was done by you and not Ford.  I wouldn't worry about it too much. 

I believe this information is 100% incorrect.  Unless you have a way to mount all the stamps together in perfect alignment, it will be obvious it is faked to anyone who has ever looked at a proper VIN.  YES you can stamp it yourself, but it will never be considered as a usable VIN.

OF COURSE IF YOU NEVER SELL THE CAR, it won’t be an issue, most likely.  Also if you have legit paperwork and a new owner does not care about the restamp, you MIGHT be done with the problem.  But you might NOT if it ever gets where the car is worth alot of money, and somebody questions it.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

10/15/2020 5:44 AM  #7


Re: Big, big Mistake

MS wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

If you need to stamp one of the aprons just buy a set of number and letter stamps from Harbor Freight and do it yourself.  No one will ever know it wasn't original.  Its not like the people at the DMV, if they even looked at it, would ever know it was done by you and not Ford.  I wouldn't worry about it too much. 

I believe this information is 100% incorrect. Unless you have a way to mount all the stamps together in perfect alignment, it will be obvious it is faked to anyone who has ever looked at a proper VIN. YES you can stamp it yourself, but it will never be considered as a usable VIN.

OF COURSE IF YOU NEVER SELL THE CAR, it won’t be an issue, most likely. Also if you have legit paperwork and a new owner does not care about the restamp, you MIGHT be done with the problem. But you might NOT if it ever gets where the car is worth alot of money, and somebody questions it.

Making up a fixture to hold the stamps is quite easy, honestly, this is how it was done at the factory.  They loaded individual stamps into a carrier and stamped the metal.  Obviously you wouldn't want to try and stamp it individually and have the figures all willy nilly.

As far as legitimacy, the car would need to be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars for anyone to look at it that closely.  I get that the whole restamping, rebodying thing is a hot button issue for you, but you'd be surprised to find out how much this is done.  I'm violently opposed to it if its done for deceptive purposes.  In this case its being done due to repair, not to try and convince someone a car is numbers matching when it really isn't.  If you sell the car you are simply honest with the buyer, and you can take some pictures of the process so its documented. 

Let me take another tact here, before cars had VINs stamped on the body, frame, or on a data plaque the number the vehicle was titled by was on the engine block, and it was stamped.  It begs the question, what did you do if the engine was shot and needed to be replaced?  The answer was in an old Ford service manual that covered Model T's I I once read: grind the numbers off the replacement engine and stamp the correct ones into the pad on the block.  Ford started producing Model Ts in 1908.  They didn't have VINs on the frame until 1925, and even then you had to lift the body to see it.  Restamping of VINS was done A LOT, and for no reason other than the number on the engine needed to match the number of the title when the engine was replaced. 

As usual, Ford should have done this another way.  If they'd just used a data plaque instead of stamping the numbers into metal that could rust this would be a non issue.  Of course, Ford didn't foresee any of these cars still being around 50+ years later, and in fact hoped they wouldn't be.  If they had their way we'd all be driving Mustangs built in the last 5 years. 
 

 

10/15/2020 8:26 AM  #8


Re: Big, big Mistake

Steve is still correct. Racking individual hand stamps gets totally incorrect c/l spacing and you could end up with a vin 5 inches long.
Racked metal stamps are designed for multiple loading and results in proper distance between individual units.
Part of my job at John Deere was repairing consecutive serial number stamping machines
See example below.
A    B   C   D   1   2   3   4   5   6   7   E   F   G   H   I    J      <. Hand stamps racked

ABCD1234567EFGHIJ                                         <Multi load production stamps

Last edited by Rudi (10/15/2020 8:28 AM)


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

10/16/2020 5:58 AM  #9


Re: Big, big Mistake

Modify the Harbor Freight stamps as required to get the proper spacing.  Cut, grind, etc.

If that doesn't work you could have a stamp made, though it would likely be considerably more costly.  Though in the end, what's it worth to you?  I'm betting you could have it made for $500 or less.  If you need a CAD drawing for fabrication send me the particulars and I'll do it for you. 
 

 

10/16/2020 6:29 AM  #10


Re: Big, big Mistake

To start with Harbor Freight stamps are the wrong font, as for building your own try to be realistic. Cad drawings or no, tooling and machining costs would be in the thousands plus, maybe less if having access to the kind machinery needed to DIY.
Been there done that, on someone else’s nickel.


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

10/16/2020 5:00 PM  #11


Re: Big, big Mistake

I wouldn't worry about the font.  This needs to provide a serviceable VIN, not get 100 points at a concourse show.

As far as having a stamp made, a local machine shop here said he would charge a couple hundred dollars.  Its a short time on a CNC machine and a chunk of steel.  You back up the steel with a thick aluminum plate and use a hydraulic press to make the stamping.  Properly supported and with a steady hand you could probably do it with a big hammer.  Keep in mind this needs to work a handful of times at most.  This isn't some massive operation stamping thousands of parts where the stamp has to be very tough, etc.  This is kind of a backyard hack, but if I had to do it this is what I would do.  I'd do a test on a similar thickness of metal to make sure my concept worked before trying to stamp the inner fender.  Aluminum might not work as a backer for example, so I'd try oak or plastic of teflon until I got it right.  Then stamp the actual inner fender. 

 

10/16/2020 5:22 PM  #12


Re: Big, big Mistake

McMaster Carr for the stamps.Supposed to have the closest match. But, if you have the dash vin, you don't have a problem.
There is someone that will reproduce the dash vin, but I think they want a rubbing of an apron vin.

Last edited by 50vert (10/16/2020 5:26 PM)


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

10/16/2020 9:22 PM  #13


Re: Big, big Mistake

I had a car (a Morris Mini) that the vin was ruined in a wreck. The DMV made me get a bonded title and issued me a new vin that was a sticky sticker. I was told it had to go on the door post. So I stamped the original vin back where it originally went.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

10/17/2020 6:13 AM  #14


 

10/17/2020 2:57 PM  #15


Re: Big, big Mistake

50vert wrote:

McMaster Carr for the stamps.Supposed to have the closest match. But, if you have the dash vin, you don't have a problem.
There is someone that will reproduce the dash vin, but I think they want a rubbing of an apron vin.

Marti Autoworks probably.  He would make all manner of Ford tags including the door tag.  Exact repro, reasonably priced as I recall.  I had mine remade when I painted my car just so it looked brand new. 
 

 

10/17/2020 3:15 PM  #16


Re: Big, big Mistake

That tag is about the only one that  Marti won't make.


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

10/17/2020 3:53 PM  #17


Re: Big, big Mistake


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

Board footera


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