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10/21/2020 5:47 AM  #1


Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

1966 Mustang Coupe, 1988 5.0 Swap, GT40 Heads, GT40 Upper and Lower Intake, EFI-MAF, T5z, stock rods, stock rockets, stock pistons

I'm going to be upgrading to a 24 in radiator so I'm thinking I might as well do the cam swap since I'd have to pull the radiator to do that anyway.  I'm running the stock cam from the 88 5.0 HO.  I want to keep this additional project to a bare minimum  parts to keep cost down.  I don't plan on pulling the heads and I'd like to use the same lifters, rockers, rods,etc.  I can upgrade those things later along with new valve covers.

Yea yea, I know, there are 15 other parts that I SHOULD go ahead and upgrade but that's not in the budget right now.  As far as I can tell, I can get by with just replacing the cam, Ford B303, and new timing chain. That's about $400 new and planning on spending right about $1100 on the radiator upgrade so that puts me at $1500 on the project.  Maybe a weekends worth of work.

That sound about right? 

 

10/21/2020 7:54 AM  #2


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

Don't forget the $700 for the dyno work and maybe $300 for new injectors 'cause you are probably going to need some tweaking with that cam.

 


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

10/21/2020 8:13 AM  #3


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

Bullet Bob wrote:

Don't forget the $700 for the dyno work and maybe $300 for new injectors 'cause you are probably going to need some tweaking with that cam.

 

 Yea... see there's that project creep I hate.  I'll still be in the HP range that 19lb injectors will work.  But with a new CAM I'm definitely in line for a tune to get everything dialed in right.  And if I upgraded to 24lb injectors that would give me plenty of room but that will double require a custom tune.  So if a custom tune is required then might as well upgrade the injectors too which is another $350...

     Thread Starter
 

10/21/2020 9:26 AM  #4


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

So.... you are thinking of replacing the cam, and not the lifters, rockers and/or springs....???
Certainly you are gonna need the gaskets and seals (especially the crank/timing cover seal), and you are thinking about re-using radiator hoses, or was that part of the $1100 radiator upgrade?

Browse Virginia Classic Mustang for radiators and shrouds.  Me thinks you could reallocate some of those radiator upgrade dollars to the cam swap project......

 

10/21/2020 2:17 PM  #5


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

Minimally cam and lifters, unless the lifters are known to be reasonably new.  I know they are rollers, and I know you should be able to be reused, but I've seen roller lifters fail with high mileage.  At some point it just becomes cheap insurance.  I've seen oil pumps locked up after ingesting those tiny rollers from a failed lifter, and that's basically bye, bye engine at that point. 

Definitely gaskets for intake and valve covers also.

You really should have 24 lbs/hr injectors with just the GT40 top end.  That's what the Cobras got and they had the same cam as a GT.  Once you get to about 300HP the 19s are just too small.  You can make them work by jacking the fuel pressure up, but they spray pattern and atomization become bad and you lose efficiency. 

My question would be is the bump you''ll get from the B cam worth it?  Its not that much bigger than stock, and its  single pattern cam, which I'm not usually a big fan of, unless the heads have a really good I/E relationship.  The GT40s can still benefit from a bit more on the exhaust side.  Personally I'd call Crane and get them to spec me a cam for my setup.  You'll make more power, more efficiently with what you already have.  The B cam was a decent upgrade for an otherwise stock engine, but was designed to be used with the stock E7TE heads.  I think you'd be leaving power on the table with it. 

 

10/21/2020 4:26 PM  #6


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^ what TKO sez..............and
                                 Like that 'clown' on TV said......"and Joe that little girl was... me!"
Yep I had massive roller lifter failure because I used lifters that came with the salvage yard engine I bought. (No clue how many miles were on them.... )
I would take a look at the specs on the 'old' B cam and..... tweak-em a little (maybe a little more lift.....little longer LSA....little longer exhaust duration/and or lift) make it more suitable for your application. Also...make it YOUR custom grind and have Delta  Cams,  Howard or Comp grind it for you. Delta has a better price butt all the cam co will custom grind most at no additional cost. Pretty cool feeling knowing your camshaft was your "design."
Take the time to degree it in also. ( I chose to advance mine 6 degrees for even more bottom end torque) You will need an adjustable timing gear set. (think about a gear drive for that interesting whine/busy sound they give.)
Unless your springs are fairly new you may not have much upper RPM action.  Butt if you don't plan to 'wind-it-to-the-moon' it could be a non-issue.
I tink you could do better(price-wise) on a radiator IMHO.
Take lotsa picture.
6s6

Last edited by 6sally6 (10/21/2020 4:28 PM)


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

10/21/2020 8:45 PM  #7


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

TW, I believe it’s possible to cut your radiator budget in half.
Here’s a link with some great information.

https://fyi.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=10311


65 coupe, 5.0L, T5, 3.25 Currie traction lock, strong arming for now
 

10/22/2020 7:47 AM  #8


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

Do you people get commission off of part recommendations or what????  
Apparently I can't upgrade the injectors w/o also upgrading that MAF Flow sensor.  Unfortunately, I can't buy JUST the MAF sensor I need to buy the entire intake housing which is another $250.

Forget it, I'm not doing the cam swap, the cost just spiral out of my budget too fast at this point.

I'm swapping out the radiator, https://www.summitracing.com/parts/gri-cu-00039
New Injectors
New MAF sensor

That's it.  If I can find the injectors used I can keep this under $1500.  So that's the plan.

The radiator kit I'm buying includes the fans and shroud.  Because of the 5.0 swap, I have less room for a stock radiator.  Need to keep the total thickness (including fan) to under 6.5"  Only saw a couple of options that fell into that size and this is the one I'm going with.

     Thread Starter
 

10/22/2020 9:57 AM  #9


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

well.....hey........it was fun 'bench-rac'in about it!!
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

10/22/2020 10:39 AM  #10


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

TremendousWand wrote:

Do you people get commission off of part recommendations or what????  

No commissions here! LOL  What I believe you see in the responses above, is real world recommendations of people that have previously attempted what you are on the brink of attempting.  I believe they are sharing some long range experiences to your plan, and are attempting to get you to slow down a little, and consider what they think may seem a little optimistic, from their experience. Your results may vary....  I also understand your sentiments about  spending OPM....Other People's (your) Money.

I understand the limited space restraints for radiators in old cars.  I also REALLY understand limited budgets for these hobby cars.  That's where I was trying to be helpful in reducing your outlay for the radiator.  On two separate vehicles I have installed Ford Contour/ Mercury Cougar LOW PROFILE dual electric fans, with Volvo OEM fan relays (also pulled from junkyards for $5).  I have pulled the fans from junkyards for $35 and put them in a first gen S10 pickup with a warmed up SBC 350, where space was VERY limited.  I also put the contour fan in our 66, which has an 2004 supercharged Terminator Mustang 32V 4.6 drivetrain swapped in it, again with VERY limited space.  In both cases, with some fan relay/controller work, the installations work excellent.  The contour fans come on a shroud and have a total thickness of about 3.5 inches, and operate quietly, and have both high and low speeds, and REALLY move air on high speed.  I cannot say enough good things about these setups, for applications where electric fans make sense. (FWIW, I like mechanical fans best).

Here is a link to the Contour fan.  I am NOT recommending that you purchase from LMR.  I am recommending an OEM Ford item from a junkyard for under $50, and a $350 radiator, as mentioned in my previous post.  The link is just to give you a visual of the size and shape of the Contour fan.  You will need to fab some simple brackets.  I'm out.

https://lmr.com/item/LRS-8607F/mustang-contour-electric-fan-assembly-79-93

 

10/22/2020 4:01 PM  #11


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

Uh, I don't know who told you that, but you do not need to swap the MAF sensor.  Like a lot of this stuff, there's a half truth buried in there.  You can't just put new injectors in the engine and roll.  You will have a fuel curve that is too rich because the bigger injectors move more fuel for the same pulsewidth.  There are two ways to handle this, the right way (and the way Ford did it on the '93-'95 Cobras) and the slap on some parts way.  The right way is to have the MAF transfer function adjusted in the ECU as part of tuning.  This can be done by a tuner, or you can do it yourself with something like the Moates Quarter Horse & accompanying software.  This is the right way to do it, and will yield a car that runs and drives as good as factory all over, and also makes better power. 

The slap parts on it way is to buy a "calibrated" MAF.  We used to do this all the time, but the result was some odd characteristics most places other than WOT because these MAFs don't actually adjust anything; they trick the ECU into thinking the car still has 19lbs/hr injectors by changing the MAF signal.  That sounds good, but in practice there are scaling problems with this over a lot of the fuel curve, because the values the ECU is supposed to see are not a linear, 2D curve; they are a 3D map. 

And no, sadly, I don't get any commissions either.  I've just been modifying cars and trucks for a couple decades and learned how you have to modify them.  There are no magic bullet parts because a car is a system.  Changing just one part of a system rarely yields acceptable results, unless there was one part that was grossly undersized/underdesigned, and the engineers who did the designing were actually pretty good at their jobs.  Sorry, TNSTAAFL rears its ugly head again. 

 

10/22/2020 5:06 PM  #12


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

TNSTAAFL 🤣


65 coupe, 5.0L, T5, 3.25 Currie traction lock, strong arming for now
 

10/22/2020 9:44 PM  #13


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

Nos681 wrote:

TNSTAAFL 🤣

Sorry..........I guess I'm just old butt......what does that stand for?
REEEEAL SLOOOOOW.......like I'm a 6 year old.
6s6

I'm not even sure what WOKE is either (political term)
 

Last edited by 6sally6 (10/22/2020 9:47 PM)


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

10/22/2020 10:26 PM  #14


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

https://i.ibb.co/Gdpnrpm/A7-FF1079-E33-B-4014-BABF-52-BC39-B99-C03.png


Don’t feel bad Mike.
I had to look it up too.
TKO is great at making me learn acronyms.

At least I know what hunker down means.
Up tick is just a made up word for collegiates.😁


65 coupe, 5.0L, T5, 3.25 Currie traction lock, strong arming for now
 

10/23/2020 3:37 AM  #15


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

TremendousWand wrote:

Do you people get commission off of part recommendations or what????  
Apparently I can't upgrade the injectors w/o also upgrading that MAF Flow sensor.  Unfortunately, I can't buy JUST the MAF sensor I need to buy the entire intake housing which is another $250.

Forget it, I'm not doing the cam swap, the cost just spiral out of my budget too fast at this point.

I think he took his bat and ball and went home? https://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/shocked.png


1964-1/2 D Code Coupe - 289 V8 - 4 Speed - Autolite 4100 Carb, 15" tires, Pertronix ignition
 

10/23/2020 5:41 AM  #16


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

TKOPerformance wrote:

Uh, I don't know who told you that, but you do not need to swap the MAF sensor.   

Yes you do. 

19lb injectors require a 19lb MAF sensor. 
24lb Injectors require a 24lb MAF sensor.
30lb Injectors require a 30lb MAF sensor.
....so on

You maybe be confusing MAF with BAP.

BAP stays the same as it just measure barometric pressure.  MAF sensor is calibrated to send the correct air flow resistance relative to you injectors size. This is the reason that just about every custom tune option out there goes speed density and does away with MAF.: no changing out MAF sensors when making changes w/ speed density, just need to tell the ECU what's there. 
 

     Thread Starter
 

10/23/2020 7:25 AM  #17


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

TremendousWand wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

Uh, I don't know who told you that, but you do not need to swap the MAF sensor.   

Yes you do. 

19lb injectors require a 19lb MAF sensor. 
24lb Injectors require a 24lb MAF sensor.
30lb Injectors require a 30lb MAF sensor.
....so on

You maybe be confusing MAF with BAP.

BAP stays the same as it just measure barometric pressure.  MAF sensor is calibrated to send the correct air flow resistance relative to you injectors size. This is the reason that just about every custom tune option out there goes speed density and does away with MAF.: no changing out MAF sensors when making changes w/ speed density, just need to tell the ECU what's there. 
 

I appreciate your passion, but I've been modifying Mustangs with EECIV engine controls since they were almost new.  There's a lot of "common knowledge" out there about the EECIV, but I assure you that though it is definitely common; its by no means knowledge.  Point being, no one told me that, its well know in EECIV tuning circles.  Here's what Ryan Moates has to say about it:

http://support.moates.net/ford-calibrated-mafs/

This is also evidenced by the fact that Ford used the same MAF in the '93 Cobra (24s) as they did in the GT (19s).  The difference was the '93 Cobra used a specific ECU that had different programming to account for the difference in injector flow characteristics.  A tuner can do the exact same thing.  Aftermarket MAFs, the good ones at least, come with a flow sheet showing the characteristics of the MAF so a tuner can adjust the transfer function in the programming. 

IF you don't want to tune it, then yes, you need a "calibrated" MAF that tricks the ECU into running larger than stock injects.  This is not really a great solution though. 

A proper tune from a reputable tuner would not go SD over MAF, unless you only used the car for racing.  The benefits of MAF are considerable, as evidenced by that fact that EVERY new vehicle has used this technology since the '90s.  Honestly if you were just drag racing you'd be fine just running Alpha-N, which is even simpler than SD. 

Summation, you need to make a change to either hardware or software to run larger injectors.  Software is the better option.  Hardware will work, but the only guys who swear you HAVE to run a different MAF with larger injectors simply don't know anything about tuning. 

 

10/23/2020 7:32 AM  #18


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

Nos681 wrote:

https://i.ibb.co/Gdpnrpm/A7-FF1079-E33-B-4014-BABF-52-BC39-B99-C03.png


Don’t feel bad Mike.
I had to look it up too.
TKO is great at making me learn acronyms.

At least I know what hunker down means.
Up tick is just a made up word for collegiates.😁

TNSTAAFL is still used a lot in the programming world.  You'll hear software types still using it.  Heinlein was a great author, though Philip K. Dick maybe had the most lasting impression on the genre.  There's half a dozen great scifi films based on his stuff including Blade Runner and Total Recall based on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and We Can Remember It For You Wholesale respectively. 

 

10/23/2020 1:40 PM  #19


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

TKOPerformance wrote:

TremendousWand wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

Uh, I don't know who told you that, but you do not need to swap the MAF sensor.   

Yes you do. 

19lb injectors require a 19lb MAF sensor. 
24lb Injectors require a 24lb MAF sensor.
30lb Injectors require a 30lb MAF sensor.
....so on

You maybe be confusing MAF with BAP.

BAP stays the same as it just measure barometric pressure.  MAF sensor is calibrated to send the correct air flow resistance relative to you injectors size. This is the reason that just about every custom tune option out there goes speed density and does away with MAF.: no changing out MAF sensors when making changes w/ speed density, just need to tell the ECU what's there. 
 

I appreciate your passion, but I've been modifying Mustangs with EECIV engine controls since they were almost new.  There's a lot of "common knowledge" out there about the EECIV, but I assure you that though it is definitely common; its by no means knowledge.  Point being, no one told me that, its well know in EECIV tuning circles.  Here's what Ryan Moates has to say about it:

http://support.moates.net/ford-calibrated-mafs/

This is also evidenced by the fact that Ford used the same MAF in the '93 Cobra (24s) as they did in the GT (19s).  The difference was the '93 Cobra used a specific ECU that had different programming to account for the difference in injector flow characteristics.  A tuner can do the exact same thing.  Aftermarket MAFs, the good ones at least, come with a flow sheet showing the characteristics of the MAF so a tuner can adjust the transfer function in the programming. 

IF you don't want to tune it, then yes, you need a "calibrated" MAF that tricks the ECU into running larger than stock injects.  This is not really a great solution though. 

A proper tune from a reputable tuner would not go SD over MAF, unless you only used the car for racing.  The benefits of MAF are considerable, as evidenced by that fact that EVERY new vehicle has used this technology since the '90s.  Honestly if you were just drag racing you'd be fine just running Alpha-N, which is even simpler than SD. 

Summation, you need to make a change to either hardware or software to run larger injectors.  Software is the better option.  Hardware will work, but the only guys who swear you HAVE to run a different MAF with larger injectors simply don't know anything about tuning. 

Spend $500 on a chip and software as well as spend a ton of time learning to tune or $150 on a calibrated MAF sensor which can be swapped out in 5 minutes?  When I do swap out the CAM I will definitely need a custom tune, for right  now upgrading the injectors might just help so the stock injectors aren't operating at a higher than necessary.  

My kids want a nintendo for christmas.  I got to pace my spending.
 

     Thread Starter
 

10/23/2020 3:54 PM  #20


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

The assumption that the 5 minutes MAF swap is the same as the tuning is inherently flawed.  Like I said, it will work, but it will not be optimum.  Typical issues without tuning are dead spots during part throttle acceleration, hesitation on throttle tip in, and occasionally detonation. 

I can bolt an Edelbrock carb onto an engine and I'm confident it will start up and run.  I've done it many times.  It will not be optimum for the engine/car though.  That requires tuning.  An EFI engine is exactly the same, its just that tuning is no longer done by swapping jets and messing with distributor weights.  You need to be able to adjust the tuning in the ECU, or have it done. 

I wouldn't put any money into it at this point, or maybe just buy the injectors and put them on the shelf.  You don't need a bigger MAF, so I'd save the money on the aftermarket one and just wait for the tune.  Tuning is probably going to run close to the same as buying the stuff to tune it yourself, so its up to you if you'd rather not get into tuning it.

 

10/23/2020 8:31 PM  #21


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

Don’t forget the rear end gear ratio change and torque converter with higher stall So you can get some of your low end acceleration back. .

I will help you offset the cost of all this by buying your old GT cam.  I think they work great and I could use one on my next 5.0 build.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

10/24/2020 6:21 AM  #22


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

I'll ad that its important to understand why some of these myths about the EECIV have hung around, so one can properly dismiss them.

When the Fox EFI cars first came out in '86 the aftermarket gobbled them up immediately.  The learning curve however was steep.  The first parts that came out were typical performance stuff like exhaust, headers, intakes, and other bolt ons.  These things didn't effect the airflow enough to make tuning mandatory, as even the SD cars would tolerate about a 10% increase in airflow. 

This just wasn't enough though, and car guys always want more power, so they had to start addressing things like more fuel, altering spark tables, etc.  The problem which immediately appeared was that this required tuning, but there were very, very few places that could actually tune these cars.  So the aftermarket just came up with various work arounds.  This is where "chips" came from.  These were ready made chips or piggyback systems that used the service port using "canned" tuning (universal tuning not specific to the vehicle, but that nonetheless improved performance).  This also meant that in order to provide plug and play ability for fueling they needed a work around, which came in the form of "calibrated" MAFs. 

Eventually every vehicle on the planet was running EFI, and a whole new generation of people who grew up in the performance car scene came of age.  EFI didn't intimidate these people because its all they'd ever known.  They regarded carbs like we regard a Model T Ford.  Tuning became a thing, and chassis dynos became affordable for smaller shops.  Quality tuning places started popping up everywhere, and today they aren't hard to find.

Most would assume that the Fox cars and the EECIV got left behind as the tuners went on to newer models, but this didn't happen.  The popularity of those cars meant that people continued to work on them, and there are still guys actively cracking BINs and writing new tunes for the EECIV today.  Given those changes the old logic of not being able to tune because tuners are scarce and no one knows how to do it simply doesn't apply.  Tuning is always your best bet now, and so easy to find that the old plug and play work around solutions are best left with the carbs they replaced.

AND, lest we forget what started this revolution, it was the Fox Mustang and the EECIV.  When you really start to understand it you realize how amazing it truly was for the day.  It took GM 5 years to catch up, and their systems still weren't anywhere close to as good until the LS series came out in '97.  By that point the systems were also much more complex due to emissions standards having changed.  I, and a lot of tuners, still feel that the EECIV may be the best factory EFI system ever devised due to its ease of modification, inherent logic, and simplicity. 

 

10/24/2020 12:44 PM  #23


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

UR right about the younger guyz NOT being intimidated by FI.
I would need somebody to SHOW me(hands-on) how to tune FI/EECIV and all the associated pieces before I could start to understand the howz & whyz.
I remember I was scared-to-death the first time I took a Holley carb apart and re-built it.
Now............it's just a thang like every thing else.
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

10/24/2020 4:52 PM  #24


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

I’m not a Boomer and not a Millennial.

Mid-lineal?😂


65 coupe, 5.0L, T5, 3.25 Currie traction lock, strong arming for now
 

10/25/2020 7:35 AM  #25


Re: Minimum Required Parts for a Cam Swap?

Nos681 wrote:

I’m not a Boomer and not a Millennial.

Mid-lineal?😂

Gen X, me too.

 

Board footera


REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on.