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11/08/2020 4:35 PM  #1


Electrical/Starting Problem

64/1/2, converted to generator years ago, ‘Painless’ wiring, 289, C4 trans. AC, Air. Had the car for about 20 years. I have been chasing this problem for several months and it’s been very frustrating. Started out when I went to start the car and got nothing, nothing at all. Jumped the voltage solenoid and it started right up. OK, problem solved??? Replaced the solenoid, started a few times without any problems. Couple days later, again, nothing. Someone on the board explained if the battery had worn down there is a way the solenoid could weld parts together so I replaced the battery and bought another Ford solenoid. Seemed like everything was good to go again. Drove the car a few times and it was fine. Couple days later came out and nothing. Tried to start it again several times and it turned over, tried again and nothing. Tried several more times and nothing. Now I’m thinking it’s the switch or key housing. Bought both of those. Put them in today. Nothing.  So here’s what I got. New battery, switched out the solenoid twice, new key housing and ignition switch. If I turn the key too ‘ON’ the radio comes on but nothing else. If I turn the key to ‘START’ and hold it there, the wipers and blower motors work. If I jump the solenoid  the engine turns normally. This is getting expensive and I feel I am not getting anywhere. I would appreciate any thought of what to do/check next.Thanks,Randy

 

11/08/2020 4:53 PM  #2


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

Don't take this the wrong way, but its getting expensive because you are troubleshooting it by replacing parts.  This happens a lot with electrical stuff because its the least understood system in the car.  I don't replace any electrical part without first troubleshooting it.  Its easy and requires at most a multimeter and some alligator clip jumper wires. 

If the battery has sufficient voltage and will pass a load test the battery is fine. 

The solenoid can be tested by checking continuity through it by applying 12v from the battery to the trigger post and grounding the body.  There should not be continuity without 12V applied and there should be with 12V applied.  If that checks out the solenoid is fine. 

I would take a good look at all the grounds and cables.  Corrosion can form inside the cable under the insulation and increase resistance dramatically.  I would probably go back to the original ignition switch since that didn't seem to be the issue, and the older switches most believe (myself included) were significantly better made that the repros out there today. 

The next step would be to check out the wiring.  Check each connection in the starting circuit.  Take each plug off, look for corrosion, look for frayed wires or wires not making good connections.  Dollars to doughnuts this is a wiring issue, because its intermittent.  Hard electrical parts either work or they don't.  Wiring gives you fits because it makes a good ground until it gets jostled, then doesn't, etc.  I would peg the issue as something in the wiring for the ignition switch.  Unfortunately I can't offer specific advice because the car has non stock wiring.  Hopefully one of the other guys on here that runs a Painless harness can chime in with wiring colors, etc.

 

11/08/2020 9:40 PM  #3


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

TKO is right.  You gotta troubleshoot this one.  The next time this happens...STOP!  I don't mean to offend but I'm going to assume that you are not comfortable working on or troubleshooting automotive electrical systems. If I am mistaken please say so.
Otherwise, take your brand new HF digital VOM (that's Volt-Ohm Meter), set it on the 20 volt VDC scale, use you new alligator clip jumper leads to connect the black lead of the meter to the battery negative clamp, connect the red (positive) lead of the meter to the "S" terminal of the solenoid without removing or disturbing the wire connected there.  Watch the meter while having someone else turn the key to the "Start" position.  If the VOM reads +- 12 volts you are getting voltage from the Ignition switch but it isn't making the solenoid close.  So, now take the red jumper loose from the VOM lead and, leaving it connected to the "S" terminal of the solenoid, touch the other end to the battery positive post.  If the engine turns over...may actually try to start if the Painless is set up like stock...the problem is probably in the various connections from the "S" terminal of the solenoid to the Ignition switch "S" terminal.  Like, neutral safety switch on the transmission, or any bulkhead or firewall connectors, or crimp on terminals...bad/dirty/weak connection.
If the engine still does not turn over take a couple of other jumpers and connect them from the body or mount flange of the solenoid to the negative post of the battery.  Now touch the red wire from the "S" terminal to the positive post of the battery.  If nothing still happens get back to us.

I know this is can be confusing but its really pretty simple.  You just need to keep in mind that car wiring normally uses just one "hot" wire for a circuit.  Most devices are grounded and the chassis acts as the second wire in the circuit.  If something doesn't work it's either bad or not getting voltage or not properly connected to the negative post of the battery through the ground (chassis) connection.

Hope this helps.

BB1

Last edited by Bullet Bob (11/08/2020 9:45 PM)


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

11/08/2020 11:47 PM  #4


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

Thank you for your input. No offense taken. I will try your suggestions tomorrow and get back.
Thanks a  bunch!
 

     Thread Starter
 

11/09/2020 7:01 AM  #5


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

One thing to add, the start circuit to the solenoid is completed via the mounting bolts. Negative is the body of the car. Where the solenoid mounts to the body you should have a clean connection, no paint, this will stop the connection from making up.


If this forum can't fix it, it isn't broke.
 

11/09/2020 9:19 AM  #6


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

One other thing II:  Next time it happens try moving the shifter a bit.  Neutral saftey switch could be the culprit here.


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

11/09/2020 9:41 AM  #7


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

Seems like the wipers and radio, etc should NOT be functional when the key is turned to START position.   Can someone who has their car available check that for us?   With radio, ac, wipers on when trying to start the car, I think I remember they accessories should be bypassed during that START procedure.  They should STOP while cranking the starter.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

11/09/2020 11:09 AM  #8


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

MS wrote:

Seems like the wipers and radio, etc should NOT be functional when the key is turned to START position. Can someone who has their car available check that for us? With radio, ac, wipers on when trying to start the car, I think I remember they accessories should be bypassed during that START procedure. They should STOP while cranking the starter.

Absolutely.  You want as little electrical load on the system as possible, and there's no reason for those accessories to run while cranking.  Every vehicle I've ever had if you crank it and the wipers are on the wipers stop while cranking and resume once it starts. 

 

11/09/2020 1:29 PM  #9


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

My point is:  if all that stuff works in START position, something is wired wrong.

And also check that neutral safety switch as bob suggested.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

11/09/2020 2:08 PM  #10


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

wsinsle wrote:

One thing to add, the start circuit to the solenoid is completed via the mounting bolts. Negative is the body of the car. Where the solenoid mounts to the body you should have a clean connection, no paint, this will stop the connection from making up.

I agree - I had a friend with an old F-150 that he was restoring. He had almost the same symptoms. I helped t/s the problem and discovered that he had mounted his solenoid using sheet metal bolts that had rubber washers under them. The rubber kept the solenoid from getting a proper ground. Once we removed the washers, all the problems went away.


68 coupe - 351W, 4R70W, 9" 3.25 -- 65 convertible - 289 4v, C4, 8" 3.00
 

11/09/2020 4:19 PM  #11


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

MS wrote:

My point is: if all that stuff works in START position, something is wired wrong.

And also check that neutral safety switch as bob suggested.

I keep thinking back to this, could the whole switch assembly be turning when rotating the key. Never making it to the start position?
The other questions would be, How long has the painless wire system been installed. Has everything worked for a long while since installing the painless wiring? Did this start after installing new wiring?
I agree that's something weird.


If this forum can't fix it, it isn't broke.
 

11/10/2020 12:54 PM  #12


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

So usually, in troubleshooting, if a problem suddenly crops up, you go back to the very last thing you did before the trouble started. Look closely at that, and many times you can find your problem right away. Other times, maybe it is just something that finally lets go after time, miles and maybe a related component or system failed.


68 coupe - 351W, 4R70W, 9" 3.25 -- 65 convertible - 289 4v, C4, 8" 3.00
 

11/11/2020 8:27 PM  #13


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

That's a lot to think about and digest. I was not driving the car very often due to several reasons, moving, storage, registration, keeping/restoring 3 other cars and on and on. I would always start it every week or two and bring it up to temp. and usually a trip around the block to keep everything moving. It was rewired about 12 years ago. Two of my cars are British which makes me very careful about grounds and keeping them clean. I always go to bare metal although in 12 years rust will form. The car was mostly garage kept but always covered.
I explained what I went through and changed out. I did play with the gearshift thinking it might be the neutral switch. It makes sense that all power would be diverted only to starting the car. Painless prints where each wire goes every 9" or so. The wire on the switch blade that is marked for the voltage solenoid is the one that goes to the solenoid and both have the came color code so I feel confident they are correct. As for the switch, There is some very slight movement when the keys is turned. I can see it in the Bezel, but it is slight. I can feel the individual clicks as it goes through the 4 different stages and the 'Start' has a good return spring. I am away from the car presently and won't be home until Sat. but I do not remember if anything worked on 'Acc.' or 'On'. When I get home I'll check that and what TKO & BB1 suggested as well as the neutral switch.
Thanks a bunch
rap

     Thread Starter
 

11/12/2020 10:39 AM  #14


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

TKOPerformance wrote:

MS wrote:

Seems like the wipers and radio, etc should NOT be functional when the key is turned to START position. Can someone who has their car available check that for us? With radio, ac, wipers on when trying to start the car, I think I remember they accessories should be bypassed during that START procedure. They should STOP while cranking the starter.

Absolutely.  You want as little electrical load on the system as possible, and there's no reason for those accessories to run while cranking.  Every vehicle I've ever had if you crank it and the wipers are on the wipers stop while cranking and resume once it starts. 

You both are correct, I have physically checked my ignition switch (an original spare) and in the 'start' position only the Ignition wire (red/green, wire #16) and the 'start' wire (red/blue #32) are powered.

rap - also check the engine to body ground wire is in place and connections are clean.  This is normally an uninsulated braided wire on the rear of the passenger side cylinder head and mounts to the body right behind. Without a good connection, some crazy electrical things can happen.  


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

4/22/2021 1:22 PM  #15


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

Thank you TKO, BB, BobE, Ron68, swindle, & MS! Sorry it took so long to get back to you all. It got cold and my car is out side and covered. I also needed a break. I took snippets from all your answers and checked everything and I am sure I cleaned more then I needed to but no harm in that.

It was a dead wire from the switch to the solenoid. I tried to pull the wire out to try and see if I could actually see the problem but I could not, it broke underneath the dash and I did not care to make myself into a pretzel to get it out. So, car is back running with lots of clean ground connections at the solenoid and the new main ground strap plus a few other places. Thanks again!
Randy

     Thread Starter
 

4/22/2021 2:18 PM  #16


Re: Electrical/Starting Problem

Glad to hear you got it working.  I understand auto electrics reasonably well and I still hate dealing with funky electrical issues....You dun good.


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

Board footera


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