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Jon Richard wrote:
So Daze I'm still wondering where you had the temp switch installed? this makes all the difference.
The fan switch was not in the intake. if it had been I think my fans would have been running more not less which would have eliminated the lag but would still not have been the best option. The thermostat housing I am using has a threaded boss in it for a fan switch and that is where mine is. I realized today however, when I removed the housing for the third time to put the 180º thermostat back in, that the probe was barely sticking into the main opening of the housing. So before I reinstalled it I got out my pipe thread tap and worked the threads so that I could screw the sensor/switch further into the housing. This seams to have made all the difference as there is now very little delay between when the thermostat opens and when the fans come on.
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" HA! well I was born and raised in Daytona, and after living in GA for 4 years I've learned there's ah differance. Florida, home of Larry the cable guy..."
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Aaacutally, Daniel Lawrence Whitney (otherwise known as, 'Larry the Cable Guy'), was born and raised in Nebraska (Pawnee City).
This means he's not actually a southerner ...since Nebraska is not a southern state.
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ultrastang wrote:
" HA! well I was born and raised in Daytona, and after living in GA for 4 years I've learned there's ah differance. Florida, home of Larry the cable guy..."
--------------------------------------------------------------
Aaacutally, Daniel Lawrence Whitney (otherwise known as, 'Larry the Cable Guy'), was born and raised in Nebraska (Pawnee City).
This means he's not actually a southerner ...since Nebraska is not a southern state.
DANG!!!!! Are you serious??????? He sounds more southern than..........ME!!
6s6
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Daze wrote:
The thermostat housing I am using has a threaded boss in it for a fan switch and that is where mine is.
I’ve never seen a temp switch in that location, wasn’t that for a heater bypass or a temp sending unit for running a gauge? Should work fine as now you are sensing temps for fan operation aft of the thermostat. I would monitor how long the fans stay running, I’ve only ever seen the temp switch in the radiator which would cool down faster than the upper rad hose so the only thing I can see to watch out for is your fans running on longer than needed.
Daze wrote:
I realized today however, when I removed the housing for the third time to put the 180º thermostat back in, that the probe was barely sticking into the main opening of the housing. So before I reinstalled it I got out my pipe thread tap and worked the threads so that I could screw the sensor/switch further into the housing. This seams to have made all the difference as there is now very little delay between when the thermostat opens and when the fans come on.
Makes sense that with the probe right in the flow path that now the little devil will get scorched and immediately start screamin’ at the fans to do their job. But again rather than when the fans come on watch for when they come off, maybe watch your temp gauge and if you see the temp drop a lot when the thermostat opens that might be telling you your fans are working harder than they need to.
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Coolant System Myths [Article from Pirate4x4.com] :
Myths
For those that cling tenaciously to myths, I am going to take one last crack at forever dispelling the Granddaddy of them all when it comes to cooling systems.
The myth is stated as either:
Coolant can be pumped too fast through the engine for it to absorb enough heat, or
Coolant can be pumped too fast through the radiator for it to cool properly, or
Cooling can be improved by slowing the flow of coolant through the radiator so it cools more completely.
NONE of these is true. The simple truth is that higher coolant flow will ALWAYS result in higher heat transfer and improved cooling system performance.
The reason the myth is so persistent, is that: a) without knowledge of fluid dynamics and laws of thermal conduction it does make a kind of intuitive sense and b) it is based on a tiny kernel of truth, but that kernel of truth does not explain the overall system behaviour and so, interpreted out of context, leads to a completely erroneous conclusion.
So, let's start with the tiny nugget of truth. If you had a sealed rad (no flow) full of hot coolant, and subjected that rad to airflow, yes, the longer you left the coolant in the rad, the more it would cool. However, if you were to plot that cooling over time, you would find that the RATE at which the cooling takes place is an exponential curve that decreases with the temperature difference between the hot coolant and the air. Put another way - when the temperature difference (delta-T) between the hot coolant and the airflow is large, heat transfer (cooling) initially takes place very, very quickly (almost instantaneously). But as that happens, and the coolant cools, the delta-T becomes less, and the RATE at which further cooling happens gets less and less until the point where the coolant and air are almost the same temperature and continued cooling takes a very long time. This is Newton's law of cooling. To illustrate this, recall my "quenching steel in a bucket" analogy.
A good example of this law can be seen when quenching a red-hot piece of steel in a bucket of water. At first, the temperature difference (delta-T) between the red-hot steel and the water is huge - therefore the initial heat transfer occurs at a great rate - the steel initially cools very fast - almost instantaneously. However, after this initial cooling, the delta-T is much smaller, so the remaining cooling occurs much more slowly. If you removed the steel after a second or two - it has cooled a lot - but it will still be warm. To continue cooling the steel to the temp. of the water, you have to leave it in there quite a bit longer - because as it cools - the rate of cooling continually decreases as well. In short - initial cooling is fast, but subsequent cooling occurs more and more slowly until cooling that last little bit takes a long time.
So what does this mean? Basically it means, the longer the coolant stays in the rad, the less efficient the cooling that takes place is - to the point that the rate of cooling is so slow as to be detrimental to overall system cooling. Better to dump the big load of heat right away and go back quickly for another load than hang about waiting for a last little bit of insignificant cooling to happen.
To understand fully, we have to put our rad back into the whole system where coolant is flowing and consider the effects of flow rate on the system as a whole.
Slowing the coolant in the rad may allow that coolant (the coolant in the rad) to dissipate a little more heat (but not much), and at an ever decreasing rate (exponentially decreasing) BUT since the cooling system is a closed-loop system, you also have to consider what’s happening outside the radiator if you slow the flow - especially to the coolant in the engine. If you slow the coolant through the rad, you slow the coolant through the engine too. And this coolant is subject to the same laws - the greater the initial temperature difference between the engine and the coolant, the greater the rate at which the coolant absorbs the heat from the engine. BUT - if we leave the coolant in contact with the engine for longer by slowing the flow through the rad, the delta-T between engine and coolant decreases and with it the rate at which the coolant in the engine absorbs the heat from the engine. Meanwhile the engine is banging away producing heat, but the coolant is absorbing it at a slower and slower rate - that heat has to go somewhere, and since the slow coolant is becoming less efficient at absorbing it - it stays in the metal - and the metal overheats!
Meanwhile, back at the rad, you're wasting time trying to shed the last little bit of heat when the delta is small instead of carrying away the “big chunks” of heat. And the situation just gets worse and worse in a downward spiral.
Imagine emptying a truckload of sand using a small wide-mouth container vs. a larger narrow-mouth container. The job will get done quicker by making more trips with the smaller container that takes less time to fill and empty, rather than taking the time to fill the larger narrow-mouth container and then taking the time to empty it – that extra in the larger narrow-mouth container isn’t worth it – better to dump the load and go back for more.Or, how about this for those who are fans of elaborate metaphorsImagine a circular train track with two stations opposite each other and rail cars that fill the whole track. One station has an endless supply of passengers trying to get on and the other is where they get off and disperse. Your job as the train driver is to move as many people as possible to keep them from accumulating at the embarkation station and crushing each other. Now imagine the passenger cars are funnel-shaped on the inside. This means the first big batch of people can get on and off quickly, but completely filling the car takes a lot longer as people have to squeeze into the narrower portion.
So, you could drive the train slowly, only moving along after each car has completely filled and completely emptied… but efficiency will be greatly reduced as it takes so long to get those last few people on or off the car – meanwhile the never ending supply of people at the embarkation station never stops and the system backs up and the people get crushed because, even though more people get on or off each car, the whole system is less efficient.
OR
You could drive the train fast, quickly loading and unloading the big, easy-to-fill, portion of each car, forget about the smaller portion, and keep picking up and dumping off a large group of passengers as fast as you can. In fact – the faster you go, the better…the more efficient at moving large numbers of people the system will be. Screw the last stragglers – they’re insignificant and won’t help you – just move the big chunk and move on, going back for more, more often.
So – you want high flow / high (turbulent) speed so it picks up and dumps off the most heat quickly – it’s inefficient to try and shed the last little bit of heat when the delta is small, and can lead to overheating because you’re wasting time not carrying away the “big chunks” of heat.
Full cooling system article located at:
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Josh... Pass the popcorn!
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MustangSteve wrote:
Josh... Pass the popcorn!
did his radiator ever get hot enough to pop any???
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Tubo engine ran cooler....??? IDK why your trying to pull ME into this!!!
Tubo
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Tubo wrote:
Tubo engine ran cooler....??? IDK why your trying to pull ME into this!!!
Tubo
Wasn't it you that Mr Tim and I were debating this with at a bash???
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Hey Ultrastang when I first got an email saying you had responded to this thread I thought OK good here will be a well thought out well researched answer, and then I got...
ultrastang wrote:
Aaacutally, Daniel Lawrence Whitney (otherwise known as, 'Larry the Cable Guy'), was born and raised in Nebraska (Pawnee City).
This means he's not actually a southerner ...since Nebraska is not a southern state.
For a minute I was a little disappointed but then you made a post more like what I expected. I think you have definitively put this matter to rest however I am sure there others participating in this thread that will not agree.
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Now - that's what I like - a good, old fashioned, knock down, drag out - debate! Way to stir things up, Day! I must admit, ultrastang's reposting of the other forum's explanation seems pretty clear to me. We should all mod our Mustangs by installing air-cooled engines - then no more coolant debates! I vote for the Continental GTSIO-520 - Geared, supercharged, injected - 375 hp - yeah, that's the ticket! Just gotta figure out how to cruise at 150 mph for best cooling.
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Ron68 wrote:
Now - that's what I like - a good, old fashioned, knock down, drag out - debate! Way to stir things up, Day!
I do my best!!! In a lot of ways this shows what the forum is made of. There has been a lot of info shot back and forth with people trying to prove their point, but it has all been good natured and civil. On any other forum this would have probably turned ugly
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Daze wrote:
Hey Ultrastang when I first got an email saying you had responded to this thread I thought OK good here will be a well thought out well researched answer, and then I got...
ultrastang wrote:
Aaacutally, Daniel Lawrence Whitney (otherwise known as, 'Larry the Cable Guy'), was born and raised in Nebraska (Pawnee City).
This means he's not actually a southerner ...since Nebraska is not a southern state.For a minute I was a little disappointed but then you made a post more like what I expected. I think you have definitively put this matter to rest however I am sure there others participating in this thread that will not agree.
It was still useful information since it dispells the notion by many that think Larry the Cable Guy is actually a southerner. --It's a stage act. ...but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy him.
...While my come back to some really useful information is an article based around a bowtie LS1 engine, it does contain a lot of well thought out information, breaks down the cooling system to its individual components, and their function in relation to the whole system, and has a good bit of (real) scientific explanation (not myths, wives tales, my buddy said), on the laws of thermal dynamics and the function of the cooling system and how it should function. Regardless of the engine in the article, thermal dynamics and its principles don't change because of what insignia is on the front of the vehicle.
It's a lengthy article, but very worthwhile to read and study.
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Ron68 wrote:
Now - that's what I like - a good, old fashioned, knock down, drag out - debate! Way to stir things up, Day! I must admit, ultrastang's reposting of the other forum's explanation seems pretty clear to me. We should all mod our Mustangs by installing air-cooled engines - then no more coolant debates! I vote for the Continental GTSIO-520 - Geared, supercharged, injected - 375 hp - yeah, that's the ticket! Just gotta figure out how to cruise at 150 mph for best cooling.
...it's all in the gearing!
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MustangSteve wrote:
OK...
It sounds like to me if you had a mechanical fan and a mechanical thermostat, everything would be working properly.
I know you live in Montana where it doesn't ever really get hot in relation to TX where I drive, and if it is currently working for you who can argue, but what is your system going to do in the winter? Other than constantly circulate cold water?
I agree with Steve. I live in SE Virginia where summer temps are in the 90s with high humidity. On my 66 coupe 289 I have a 6 blade fan and have never had an over heat problem. I do have a manually controlled electric pusher fan I installed cause I got it for nothin but I never use it.
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WOW! Thems ah lot ah words I got ah be honest my A.D.D. kicked in about half way though that but I think I got the jist of what your saying. So here's my next simple answer to the original subject. If a car is overheating, removing the thermostat WILL NOT SOLVE THE PROBLEM. It will either worsen,or delay the effects. You mentioned the rate of hot water passing through a rad and said that it would cool the water at the same rate no matter how fast it was moving. I'm sorry, but thats incorrect. The material, size, design of the rad, and it's fans+controls ,can only disipate so much heat and CAN BE OVERWELMED. Thus the reason some cars & trucks require larger rads. Allowing the water to pause in the rad gives it a chance to dissipate more heat..... Now to muddy the waters even more on this subject Your engine could also be the culprit ,running hotter than the system can keep up with. Big cams with too much lift and duration + over advanced timing can cause overheating as well. Add to that headers , flip flopped head gaskets, Or even a lean fuel condition.... BTW the big cam and timing thing can be solved by a larger rad and or fans.. Just sayin
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I don't know what is right or wrong on this issue, but I know what worked on my Mustang. For the last couple of years I've had overheating problems with my 289, 4 bbl, auto. With a new 3 core brass radiator, 6 blade fan and shroud, 180 therostat, it would run at 180 almost all the time. Butt, when running slow in traffic or trying to inch your way into a car show, it would start running hot. I mean 250 hot. Obviously it was an airflow issue. I bandaided it by adding a electric fan on the front of the radiator. I just used a manual switch and flipped it on when I knew things were slowing down. It worked great and temps never got above 190 or so. Last year I decided to upgrade to an aluminum radiator. I used the same fan and thermostat, but the shrould would not fit so I left it off. The aluminum radiator cooled better than the brass but I still had some airflow issues at slow speed. I also found that at highway speeds my engine would run as low as 150. After some forum research I decided to go with a 192 thermostat like the service manual specs. At the same time I put an electric sensor for the electric fan, so I wouldn't have to turn it on and off manually. The fan turns on at 200 and back off at 190. Well, now the engine runs right at 190 all the time, the electric fan has never come on while driving, (it will come on from heat soak after shutting off motor) and my gas mileage improved to 17 / 18 mpg from the 15 1/2 I was getting. That 180 stat I had in was obviously not working correctly. I'm really happy with the way it's running and working now. I'm thinking I might not have needed the alum radiator, but it does look pretty neat in there.
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Derek wrote:
"...Allowing the water to pause in the rad gives it a chance to dissipate more heat.....
This theory would be fine if the radiator was in a closed loop all on its own, however, that pesky Delta-T (cooling effect) thing still comes into play.
Since the radiator is not in a closed loop, all on its own, what would slowing the water flow through the radiator do to the rest of the system (the engine side of the cooling system)? If you are already having cooling problems, slowing the flow rate through the radiator means the flow rate through the engine (where the origin of the heat is coming from) is also slowed.
This means the hot water (in the engine) is now getting even hotter before it can be released through the radiator, but to an exponential degree. This would simply be a compounding problem of becoming worse.
The temperature you see on the temp guage is not an accurate reflection of what the actual temperatures are, at various points inside the engine, --particularly of the coolant temps inside the passages of the heads, which can easily range from 200-400 degrees F.
When flow is restricted (slowed) through the radiator, the impeded flow inside the engine begins transfering that slowed rate of flow (heat transfer) into the metal around it. The guage just goes higher.
...again, from the article:
Myths
For those that cling tenaciously to myths, I am going to take one last crack at forever dispelling the Granddaddy of them all when it comes to cooling systems.
The myth is stated as either:
Coolant can be pumped too fast through the engine for it to absorb enough heat, or
Coolant can be pumped too fast through the radiator for it to cool properly, or
Cooling can be improved by slowing the flow of coolant through the radiator so it cools more completely.
NONE of these is true. The simple truth is that higher coolant flow will ALWAYS result in higher heat transfer and improved cooling system performance.
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Life was good with the old belt driven fan mounted to the water pump shaft that gave air flow proportional to pump shaft speed (water flow).
Then they made viscous fan drives to limit fan speed to save horsepower and limit noise (I used to work at Eaton where they made those things).
Then they even added temperature control to the fan drives to make them even better.
Then they started using electric fans
Then they added multispeed fans
Then they added variable speed fans
Then they added electric water pumps
Then......
Looks like all the problems are all the "they"s"
Seems to me if we get the right water flow and the right air flow on a system with enough heat transfer capability, life is good!
Gotta remember though that the engine likes to run well at a certain temp. If you idea of well is cruising, that temp may be different than a racer needs. When I run the high octane stuff and crank a lot of revs, I need the large radiator and high water flow to keep it cool. I can turn the fan off because at 100 mph + there is enough flow through the grill to do the job. When I puttts through the paddock, the thermostat opens way up and the fan comes on. Works kind of like it is supposed to. I have enough radiator, enough water pump, enough fan, and controls to make it work. The controls are fan on and off at the right temp points measured at inlet side of radiator and a thermostat that maintains the water in the engine at the right temp. Currently, my thermostat is a 195 degree and the fan comes on at 210 degrees at the inlet to radiator (top Tank) the fan goes off at 200 degrees. At any speed over 30 mph I never see the fan run. We raced on a couple of 95 plus degree days this year.
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Boy you sure can tell there's nothing on TV tonight!
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Derek wrote:
Boy you sure can tell there's nothing on TV tonight!
Never is. Unlike TV though, this is more entertaining and far more educational.
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If its high flow volume that does all the cooling, then why have i heard that that some people have had success with a 2 row radiator over the 3 row? after all 3 rows would have a higher flow volume than 2 rows? and obviusly more coolant would be moving per minute with a 3 row than a 2 row so it would be a higher flow rate as well. If it was all about a high flow volume and high flow rate then we should get the largest radiator possible right? and the largest hoses, and a high volume water pump.
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Here check this site out
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ultrastang wrote:
" HA! well I was born and raised in Daytona, and after living in GA for 4 years I've learned there's ah differance. Florida, home of Larry the cable guy..."
--------------------------------------------------------------
Aaacutally, Daniel Lawrence Whitney (otherwise known as, 'Larry the Cable Guy'), was born and raised in Nebraska (Pawnee City).
This means he's not actually a southerner ...since Nebraska is not a southern state.
I live about 20 miles from Pawnee City, Larry does visit there some. I haven't met him but some folks around here have. Ate all my popcorn reading all of this.
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MarkinSC wrote:
If its high flow volume that does all the cooling, then why have i heard that that some people have had success with a 2 row radiator over the 3 row? after all 3 rows would have a higher flow volume than 2 rows? and obviusly more coolant would be moving per minute with a 3 row than a 2 row so it would be a higher flow rate as well. If it was all about a high flow volume and high flow rate then we should get the largest radiator possible right? and the largest hoses, and a high volume water pump.
Find time to read the article, in its entirety. It goes into great detail of exactly what you ask and what is recommended.
A 2-row aluminum radiator, of the same proportions, will cool just as well as a 4-row copper/brass radiator. It's not because the aluminum is a better conductor than the copper/brass, it's not. Not only is copper a better conductor of electricity than alumnimum, it's also better at dissapating thermal heat than alumium. The problem is weight. A copper/brass radiator is several times heavier than a comporable sized aluminum radiator.
Due to this, the average width of the rows (the columns the water flows through) on a c/b radiator is roughly 3/8th of an inch wide. The width of the rows of an aluminum radiator typically ranges from 1" to 1-1/4". This is far more surface area for the column of water to flow through, coming in contact with the walls of the rows, to transfer the heat to the air.
A thick, heavy c/b radiator is destructive to itself due to its own weight. Shock loads of traveling over bumpy roads or highways causes the heavier c/b radiator to flex. Eventually, this causes cracks where the rows meet the tanks. In this regard, the lighter, but stronger, aluminum radiator is more resistant to breakage in the same environment.
A modern aluminum radiator is also far better at cooling with less rows due to the contour of the walls inside the rows. It induces a lot of turbulence (tumbling) of the water as it passes through them but, without being detrimental to the coolant flow of the system (doesn't cause lots of head pressure [resistance] to the water pump). A c/b radiators tubes are smooth which can easily promote laminar flow (not a good thing). This means that the outer column of water passing through the radiator, in contact with the tube, dissapates a fair amont of heat while the core of the water column passing through the tube has little dissipation of heat.
The bigger the radiator (that will physically fit within the limitations of the core support) is always better.
...in the case of those running electric fans, regardless of what material your radiator is made out of; if you have the fan(s) and/or theromostat grounds attached to the body of the radiator, or to a bolt holding the radiator in, you need to move that gound point to somewhere on the chassis. Otherwise, you are sending a current path through your radiator every time that fan(s) or switch energizes. This will introduce electrolysis to the rows (tubes) of your radiator that will eventually clog the rows and reduce, or completely block, the flow of coolant through them.
REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on. |