FYI FORD MustangSteve's Ford Mustang Forum » Is an EFI swap going to do anything for me?

66fastback · 4/07/2014 11:55 AM

Don't worry about if this is a good deal or not.....it is a Great deal for $100. As Raymond_B said, the manifolds are worth more than that. Most places will hit you up about $100 for the wire harness. Computers are in the same ballpark ($75-125 depending on the place). This is a very good deal.

The throttle body reminds me of an Explorer type, which makes me think that was the source of the manifolds. That is not a bad thing.....same performance potential as the Cobra Intake, because that is basically what it is.

GPatrick · 4/07/2014 12:12 PM

If sites don't lie, this is a Lincoln Speed Density (SD) ECMS and is probably not as friendly for modifications compared to the Mass Air systems that most run in the early Mustang conversions. There are a lot of depates about one versus the other but I think the MAF systems are a little better for what you are doing. From what I could see the ECMS units are available for reasonable costs but you probably will need a MAF harness and the mass air sensor. I worked on a friend's Cobra kit car with a modified stock harness which he always fought. We replaced it with Ford Racing harness (kind of a hot rod part) and it went in seamlessly and already had things like EGR corrected/eliminated. So, your costs may be increasing if my google results are correct.

http://mustangforums.com/forum/5-0l-1979-1995-mustang/297202-list-of-ecms-2.html

Raymond_B · 4/07/2014 1:03 PM

That makes the whole setup less desirable. If it were me I'd buy it and sell the parts, but there was a gentleman on this board that used the SD setup and mounted the TB right to his intake. Kinda cool, but if I were going to all the work to swap I'd want a full Mustang MAF setup.

SteveinNC · 4/07/2014 3:37 PM

Lance,
You got a steal! I am jealous. Good luck with the swap. I am going thru the same process with my 66 F100.
SteveinNC

ultrastang · 4/07/2014 3:44 PM

Lance wrote:
EFI Computer Digits:

See if that's any better!

If you're going to be running a Mass Air system (and you should) that ECM won't work for you. It's for a Lincoln Mk VII. The Mk VII's had high output 5.0L engines but they were all Speed Density systems, not Mass Air. If you look on the label in the lower left corner of the ECM you have pictured you will see, "SFI-SD3." The "SD" denotes it's for a Speed Density system. If the ECM was for Mass Air it would read, "MA."

All fuel injected Mustangs from 1986-1988 had Speed Density processors EXCEPT for 1988 California build 5.0L Mustangs. '88 California built Mustangs were the first to receive Mass Air. Beginning in 1989, ALL 5.0L Mustangs were equipped with Mass Air.

If you mentioned what transmission you plan to run I must have missed it. The photo below is of an A9P EEC-IV processor I have for a 5.0L EFI engine with an automatic transmission. You can see the "A9P" in the upper right side of the lable. If this was for a 5.0L engine with a manual transmission it would read, "A9L."

Notice after the "SFI" it has "MA" (Mass Air)

An A9L is designed for a manual transmission only but, you could actually use an A9P with either an automatic or a manual transmission. ....If you were drag racing, the A9P would give a little extra boost of fuel between gear changes on a standard. If it's just a street car with a standard, would probably be best to just run the A9L.

Last edited by ultrastang (4/07/2014 4:24 PM)

Bullet Bob · 4/07/2014 4:52 PM

Even considering it's a SD PCM, I think you could find a Mass Air sensor and an A9L or P PCM for not too many $$. You will have to mod the harness a bit for the Mass Air sensor but that il pretty simple...just a couple of wires and I can provide the diags for the Mustang with Mass Air and the Mark VII. This is how I did my first harness from a Towncar. In fact...if you became interested I might b talked into a really chocolate deal on that old harness. It ran fine but wasnt' too handsome and I think I may have stolen a connector or two for the new harness. But (TS&T), it's salvagable.

Anyway, with that computer the deal ain't as sweet but it's still pretty nice with that upper manny.

Hold everything...I just looked closer and I swear I see a MA senser in that box...true? I don't see a dizzy but maybe it's just burried.

BB

Lance · 4/07/2014 5:16 PM

I'm told the distributor is in there. Still haven't pawed through it myself. You guys have given me a lot to consider, and thanks for that!

ultrastang · 4/07/2014 5:27 PM

If you get your compnents/system sorted out and installed you will need to install a pair of bungs in the exhaust system to install the O2 sensors into. I've seen some places that sell "O2 bungs" for a rediculous amount. I realized way back that you could modify some 18mm spark plug anti (or, non) foulers for this purpose and they are very cheap --like around, or less than, $5.00 bucks a pair.

The link below shows how I modified the spark plug anti-foulers and welded them into the collector of an old set of headers --and yes, I realize, after-the-fact, that I blundered the spelling of the word "fouler" in my description but, I think you'll get the idea of what I'm trying to explain.

http://ultrastang.com/info10.php

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rnb-42002?seid=srese1&gclid=CMWsp9PCz70CFSdn7AodM38AYg

Lance · 4/07/2014 7:49 PM

Well here's the latest. I own the stuff, but my car is going back together as a carb setup like it came apart. Too many variables to rush it back together. Besides, It worked great. My only complaint was the hard starts when hot and left sitting. Carbs & reformulated fuel don't mix. Valve springs will be upgraded like they were supposed to be years ago, and the crank bearings are being replaced to correct my oil pressure issues. I had been running 20W 50 to "get it up" and that was working. Despite the hydro lock, there wasn't anything wrong with the rotating assembly. Not one nit picky issue. In hind sight, I could have replaced an intake gasket and would have been done. Just too many unanswered questions to have gambled.

If the EFI goes on my car at all, it will be in the fall, with mass air flow, and a different computer. Anyone know of the perfect fully programmable computer that would work for this application? Seriously, if I'm gonna have to get an alternate computer, I'd have the most fun, and learn the most with one that would let me build the EFI profile

I hear there are two harness in the boxes, so selling them would go a long way toward buying the right purpose built new one. I believe there is a MAS in the box too. I'll take my time and plan it out.

My priority is getting my stuff out of my buddies way ASAP. He has too many other charitable cases pulling at him and i don't want to be one more. His mechanical gifts are kind of his personal ministry. I'm a distraction. I want to maintain our good friend status. I'll get the hydraulic clutch and TOB operational at my place, reinstall the engine at his place, (lifts are awesome), then drag it home and reassemble all the accessory crap here at my house. I'm still going to install O2 sensors so we can tune the carbs accurately without having to mess with a dyno flogging. O2 bungs are ridiculously priced, but Bill has a whole jar he cuts off of things being scrapped. Ultra, you are quite a guy to go to that much trouble to help people like you do. What a bunch of great guys you are!

Thanks for the direction.

Lance

Raymond_B · 4/07/2014 9:02 PM

If one of the harnesses is for a MAF car then all you would need would be the computer and possibly a MAF sensor depending on what's in there. Like BB said there's TONS of tuning stuff for 89-93 Mustang EFI. Even if you simply had someone make you a chip that wouldn't be too bad either, even if you paid for dyno time.

Heck if you find an SCT chip I have all the hardware and software to make a tune for ya

Hakan · 4/08/2014 12:40 AM

ultrastang wrote:
An A9L is designed for a manual transmission only but, you could actually use an A9P with either an automatic or a manual transmission. ....If you were drag racing, the A9P would give a little extra boost of fuel between gear changes on a standard. If it's just a street car with a standard, would probably be best to just run the A9L.

I ran my EFI converted '67 289 C4 auto trans combo with a A9L and it worked just fine.

Mach1_Ron · 4/08/2014 6:33 AM

Lance wrote:
EFI Computer Digits:

See if that's any better!

If you wanna sell it, let me know.. It would go Great on my 86 Mercury Grand Marquis with a 5.0 in it....

66fastback · 4/08/2014 6:55 AM

Just remember if and when you do convert to EFI--don't forget to match the distributor gear to the material your cam is made of. The 5.0 roller cams in the EFI cars were steel.....same on the distributor. Drop that distributor into an old block with a flat tappet cam and watch it all destroy itself.

Bullet Bob · 4/08/2014 7:25 AM

66fastback wrote:
Just remember if and when you do convert to EFI--don't forget to match the distributor gear to the material your cam is made of. The 5.0 roller cams in the EFI cars were steel.....same on the distributor. Drop that distributor into an old block with a flat tappet cam and watch it all destroy itself.

Great point, and also...any engine with the 154.....etc. firing order will have a slightly degraded idle due to the 137...etc FO of the SFI PCM. DO NOT attempt to change the injector FO to match your cam FO. That will confuse the PCM greatly when it receives feedback from the wrong O2 sensors.

BB

Last edited by Bullet Bob (4/08/2014 7:27 AM)

Lance · 4/08/2014 9:23 AM

I have been using the following timing order: 13726548 (Counter clockwise). I believe this is typically the 351 order. I figured this out the hard way as I assembled the engine in '06, putting the plug wires in the traditional 5.0 order. It didn't work out well. What impact does this firing order have on the options I have for computer selection? (It is the cam that dictates firing order, and nothing else, right?) If the various stock 5.0 EFI computers are going to demand or expect a particular firing order, doesn't this preclude me from using stock EFI computers?

Lance

Raymond_B · 4/08/2014 10:50 AM

The firing order is programmed in the computer as well. To keep your firing order you'd have to get a chip. or swap cams and go no chip.

Last edited by Raymond_B (4/08/2014 10:51 AM)

Hakan · 4/08/2014 1:56 PM

Bullet Bob wrote:
DO NOT attempt to change the injector FO to match your cam FO. That will confuse the PCM greatly when it receives feedback from the wrong O2 sensors.

Well, I actually did just that, rewired the injectors to match the cam FO and the engine ran just fine and had an impressively steady idle, but it might have something to do with the fact that I had the O2 sensors in the collectors of my long tube headers.

ultrastang · 4/08/2014 6:42 PM

This is what I had sent to Hakan.... 155 lbs worth of goodies. I had originally been gathering these parts (from various 5.0L Mustangs, at the time) for my own car back in 2000/2001. I had about $500 bucks invested in the piece - meal parts, up to that point, when I decided it would probably best for me to find a complete donor 5.0L Mustang to get everything from.

http://public.fotki.com/VikingMustang/the-phoenix-project/enginehistory/200201.html

As luck would have it (at the time), a buddy called me (about two weeks after I decided I needed to look for a donor car) to tell me he knew a guy that had just wrecked and totaled his '90 Mustang GT. I went to look at the Mustang. The body was pretty much destroyed but the 5.0L had all its accessories intact and it ran. The T-5 also worked.

I gave the guy a few hundred dollars for it, drove it onto the trailer, brought it back to the shop, and stripped everything off of it I needed. Sold some pieces off of it I didn't need that were still good and sold the hull for scrap.

Originally, I was going to sell the piece - meal parts to Hakan for half of what I had in them because I knew the VAT taxes would be high for him. Simultaneously and without my prior knowledge, he was making a website for me. He sent me an email one day (back in 2001) with a link for me to check out. When I saw what it was, I didn't feel right about selling him the parts so I emailed him back and told him he could have the parts for just the cost of shipping. .....and now you know the rest of the story.

Last edited by ultrastang (4/08/2014 6:54 PM)

Bullet Bob · 4/09/2014 11:20 AM

Hakan wrote:
Bullet Bob wrote:
DO NOT attempt to change the injector FO to match your cam FO. That will confuse the PCM greatly when it receives feedback from the wrong O2 sensors.
Well, I actually did just that, rewired the injectors to match the cam FO and the engine ran just fine and had an impressively steady idle, but it might have something to do with the fact that I had the O2 sensors in the collectors of my long tube headers.

Just wondering, Hakan...did you ever actually drive the car or just have it running and idling in the shop? At idle the O2 sensor are out of the loop, I think.

BB

Hakan · 4/09/2014 11:56 AM

Bullet Bob wrote:
Just wondering, Hakan...did you ever actually drive the car or just have it running and idling in the shop? At idle the O2 sensor are out of the loop, I think.

BB

Sure, I drove the car back in the summer of 2002 and like I said it ran just fine. I of course had a couple of issues, but none related to either the fact I was using a A9L together with an auto trans or the rewired injectors. Here's how much attention the EFI converted engine got at a local car show back then:

Bullet Bob · 4/09/2014 6:34 PM

Hakan wrote:
Bullet Bob wrote:
Just wondering, Hakan...did you ever actually drive the car or just have it running and idling in the shop? At idle the O2 sensor are out of the loop, I think.

BB
Sure, I drove the car back in the summer of 2002 and like I said it ran just fine. I of course had a couple of issues, but none related to either the fact I was using a A9L together with an auto trans or the rewired injectors. Here's how much attention the EFI converted engine got at a local car show back then:

Thanks Hakan...that's nice to know.

BB

66fastback · 4/09/2014 7:12 PM

Lance: " If the various stock 5.0 EFI computers are going to demand or expect a particular firing order, doesn't this preclude me from using stock EFI computers?"

As it has already been aluded to, the stock Ford EECIV system is a Sequential Multiport Injection System.....so the computer times the firing of the injector with the opening of the intake valve for each and every cylinder individually. Does this mean that it can't be off and work just fine....heck no. Some systems are "batch fire" and would fire all four cylinders on one side of the engine at the same time. Sure it is not as good, but it still worked.

What you need is to make sure that you have computer for an H.O. engine. The H.O.'s all used the 1-3-7 firing order, the "mom and pop" 5.0's like what went into cars like the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis and stuff actually used the old 1-5-4 firing order. All Mustangs used the H.O. engine and cam, so they are the prime source for finding a computer. I think the A9L has been mentioned as one of the top units to find. It should support up to around 400 hp without freaking out.....I'm not sure I can promise much beyond that.

ultrastang · 4/09/2014 8:32 PM

In reference to Lance's situation, I take it that the 5.0L EFI components are being swapped onto an older 289/302 block? If so, a simple way to solve the firing order dilemma, for the EEC-IV processor, is to install a regular cam for a 351W and then wire your distributor for the 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 firing order.

You could use a regular 351W hydraulic cam or, to take full advantage of a roller cam ramp profile, you could install a (retro-fit) reduced base circle roller cam with stock 5.0L link bar roller lifters or, use a 5.0L H.O. roller cam with (shorter) aftermarket roller lifters with special link bars. Either way probably isn't cheap but that's just the price you pay when changing things up.

Lance · 4/09/2014 11:15 PM

Interestingly, that is what we did. Hydraulic cam & linked roller lifters, but the cam has the HO or 351W sequence. If I had to get a different computer, I thought, why not really learn this stuff and get a fully programmable computer? Kicking around the MegaSquirt instead of the stock PCM. Doesn't that sound like fun?

L

Hakan · 4/10/2014 6:10 AM

Lance wrote:
Interestingly, that is what we did. Hydraulic cam & linked roller lifters, but the cam has the HO or 351W sequence. If I had to get a different computer, I thought, why not really learn this stuff and get a fully programmable computer? Kicking around the MegaSquirt instead of the stock PCM. Doesn't that sound like fun?

L

I also played with the idea of going with the MegaSquirt as it has support for the distributorless EDIS ignition system I am planning on using together with good support for turbocharging that's also included in my plans. But as I already have an A9L I decided to buy a Quarterhorse which basically is a hardware interface to the EEC-IV that would make it possible to modify how the engine is controlled using a PC with the related tuning software on it. Unfortunately haven't had much time to look any deeper into this yet, but I at least have all the stuff and a lot of documentation to start from. Here's the Quarterhorse installed in my A9L:

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