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4/20/2014 8:52 PM  #1


Brakes not GRABBING. Asking for some brake help please.

Hi All, I'm looking for some brake help please.

I have a '66 coupe with the standard drums in the back, a scarebird bracket set up in the front, and the mustang steve pedal.  I put on a power booster and new master cylinder last year.  It is a disc/drum m/c and I have a prop valve to the rear brakes.

Now things are working but I'm not able to lock up the tires which I think I should be able to do.  I can bottom out the brake pedal, meaning take it to the floor, and although there is pressure, its not enough to lock up the tires.  I can drive the car but can not do an emergency stop.  The car brakes feel normal unless I need a 'quick stop'.

Now I did new cheap pads in the front last year which was suggested.  This did help.  I found a leaky wheel cylinder in the right rear.  I corrected this and now I have all new hardware, shoes, and wheel cylinders in the rear.  I have adjusted the rear brakes correctly.  Then I have bleed the brakes twice.  Still not the solid stop that I am expecting. 

Now I also wanted to say that I had a manual maverick m/c (disc/drum) set up on there prior to the power booster and I could lock up the brakes.  Another thing that is probably not normal is that I put a 'in line' brake light switch.  I did this because I was having troubles with my brake lights coming on when I touched the brakes like I wanted them to.  This seemed like a easy fix.

I don't remember the year/car that the m/c is from but I do recall asking which one I needed when I did the swap so I'm confident that it should work and it is new.  I will check and I will take pictures of everything if this might help provide additional information.

I can also say that the push rod is adjusted correctly.  I've checked this a couple times last year and adjusted it, performace is the same. 

My gut tells me that things are still not bled right.  I plan on doing another bleed this coming weekend.  I'm going to really go through a lot of fluid to be sure I've got a solid bleed going at all 4 corners.  Someone mentioned that my switch may have air because of how I plumbed it in there so I'm going to 'bleed' it some what with rags under it and losening the connection flare and tightening it.  Not sure that will help or hurt.   I'm stretching now I know.  There are NO leaks any where. All fluid is new.  Booster is working great.  Mustang Steve Pedal is great.  Lights work great.  I can floor the brakes and feel the pedal bottom out but the tires don't lock up. 

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated.  I'm not even excited to drive the car this year because of the poor feel.  I even considered buying a whole new brake kit with all new (booster, m/c, etc) but I've dumped more than enough $$$ into this already.

Thanks guys.
Richard



 

 

4/20/2014 9:09 PM  #2


Re: Brakes not GRABBING. Asking for some brake help please.

Mine don't lock up either Richard! I don't really want it too....you know! I mean...it stops wayyy better than the old drum set-up butt won't "lock'em up".
IF it stops....good.....you still have control. If you lock'em up....you no longer have control.
That's how I look at it.
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

4/20/2014 9:13 PM  #3


Re: Brakes not GRABBING. Asking for some brake help please.

I totally get what your saying Sal, but this isn't a solid feel.  It's just soft.  It's not right.

     Thread Starter
 

4/20/2014 9:45 PM  #4


Re: Brakes not GRABBING. Asking for some brake help please.

Sounds to me like you still have air in the system. Some folks that haven't done a lot of brake bleeding tend to not open  the bleeder screws enough to get the air out. It's possible to crack the bleeder and get fluid out, but not flow enough fluid to carry out the air. So, open the bleeder until you think it is going to fall out, then flush out that leg. Refill MC and bleed another leg, repeat.

 

4/21/2014 8:50 AM  #5


Re: Brakes not GRABBING. Asking for some brake help please.

I picked up another bottle of fluid.  I'll do another bleed and really open up the bleeder.  I do about a 1/4 go. 1/3 turn but I'll make sure its open and do it again.  Just to be sure there are no doubts.

I'll report back!

     Thread Starter
 

4/21/2014 9:09 AM  #6


Re: Brakes not GRABBING. Asking for some brake help please.

You can get similar symptoms if you glazed the pads and rotors.  Check the pads - there are cheap pads and then really cheap pads.  If you tested them with panic stops before they were bedded they may have glazed and there is not enough friction to lock things up.  Bleeding seems to be the issue starting with bench bleed of the master (not sure you mentioned this in the posting trail).  I put a new set of pads on my 85 Mustang years ago without changing anythign else.  Went out to test them and after the abuse and incorrect bedding I couldn't lock up the brakes no matter how hard I pushed.

If bleeding doesn't resolve, you may need to grind the rotors and start with a new set of good cheap pads.

 

4/21/2014 9:45 AM  #7


Re: Brakes not GRABBING. Asking for some brake help please.

Food for thought ... not mentioned is the length of pedal travel so I offer to check that you may be hitting the full travel of the piston in the MC and not achieving full line pressure, this would be unusual but something to verify.  It is odd that the rear brakes are not locking up either as typical line pressure is about 400psi to lock up drum brakes and about 1000psi to lock up disc brakes.
You may also want to try a vacuum bledding where the brake fluid is pulled from the wheel cylinder, or caliper, rather then pushed through using the pedal.
Lastly, personally I do not like to use cheap components in the brake system ... when I need these to work, I don't want to be left to chance, just saying.


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

4/21/2014 12:56 PM  #8


Re: Brakes not GRABBING. Asking for some brake help please.

What diameter is your master cylinder?  If you feel it bottom out (hard pedal stop feel) before the brakes are fully activated, you either have too small piston or air in the system.

Onother extreme, if you have too large a MC piston, you will never build enough line pressure, but then it should have a hard brake pedal and not a positive stop at the end of its travel.

As Gary pointed out, improper break -in will render a set of brakes totally useless.  There are brake pads sold that do not seem to have any friction at all.  I am not sure how they can sell them without killing a bunch of people.

And the question that always gets asked... Which direction are the bleeders pointing?  A picture of the brakes themselves and the master cylinder and related plumbing are always a big help.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

4/22/2014 7:52 PM  #9


Re: Brakes not GRABBING. Asking for some brake help please.

Also check the pedal height. If the new MC came with its own pushrod, check for proper length. I have adjustable length pushrods for my brake and clutch pedals. I decided to shorten the rods to postion the pedals closer to the floor (closer to the gas pedal plane). The shorter rod geometry resulted in spongy brake pedal. I lengthened the rod close to stock pedal postion. The brake pedal feels normal and my brakes work.

 

Board footera


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