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10/14/2014 6:58 PM  #1


Power brakes and cams

What cam selection are you guys with power brakes running and what type of vacuum do you have at idle. My 68 has a 5.0 with a Ford E-cam and I have been very happy with the performance, but it has a lobe seperation of 110, and just makes around 14"-15" of vacuum at idle (850-900 rpm), and from what I have read, I need need minumum 16", and 18" would be better for a power brake booster. Trying to select a cam for the Falcon, and want to build the same basic motor that I have in the 68, but this one will have the stock E7 iron heads, in lieu of the AFR 165's that I have on the other motor. The falcon will be a basic stock 5.0 with a carb, T-5, 3.73 rear gear, and the car is well under 3000lbs. I want good vacuum for the brakes, and dont plan on reving it past 5500, probally closer to 5000 rpm's.

 

10/14/2014 7:43 PM  #2


Re: Power brakes and cams

No power brakes hair-butt.....there's always a vacuum reservoir/canister!!
With a Falcon(as light as they are) does one really need  huge disk brakes AND power assist?! Jus'ax'en Although they do look cool.
The E303 cam is pretty dated. It does have a nice lick-butt you can get a stronger cam with better vacuum manners AND more power for less money. I had my camshaft custom ground by Delta Cams for way less money and got a better cam and one-on-one advice from the guy do'in the grinding. (Ken)
The light weight of the Falcon combined with a good gear set and the T-5 tranny can use what may be considered a "radical" grind by some and still have good street manners.Especially if you want  large bottom end and its finished by 5500RPM! 
230-ish duration on a  107/108 LSA.(your typical dirt-track racing cam grind) Probably advance that cam about 6* when you install it  should serve up all the bottom end you can stand!!
With an RPM range of  approx. 1500rpm to 5500rpm AND that gear..........should be like flick'in on a light switch!! BOOOM..full power to BOOM time to shift!!!! (I would highly recommend an ignition box WITH a rev limiter....its gonna rev THAT quick!) 
Should really flatten your eyeballs if you can get decent traction.(THAT will be the issue....not brakes!
Really anxious to hear what you decide I had a 64 Sprint  in high school. Wish-eyed kept it!
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

10/14/2014 8:21 PM  #3


Re: Power brakes and cams

The last cam I ran in my 428 powered cobra provided a whopping 7" at idle but the power brakes still worked great because at higher speeds and in decelleration, the vacuum was quite good.  The check valve keeps the vacuum in the booster when levels are low.  If I had to stop 3 or 4 times in a row when idling through a parking lot, the boost would drop but that was pretty rare but also in a parking lot I wasn't hauling it down from 80 MPH (well, usually not).

 

10/15/2014 5:25 AM  #4


Re: Power brakes and cams

Xe 266 hr or if you really want to be done by 5k then xe258hr both thes have far less overlap than the e cam. your e cam has 62. the xe266 has 46, the xe258 has 38 and will spin over 5k..
 
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1055&sb=0
 
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1056&sb=0
 
if you want to run premium gas then mill those heads to 60 cc’s or .034”, which ever comes first.

i might go with the 258 with those heads and grind the bump out of the exhaust port and blend the valve guide and back cut the intake. it will smoke the "tire" guaranteed. i think the 266 is a bit big if you only want to rev to 5000 - 5200.
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Last edited by barnett468 (10/15/2014 5:35 AM)

 

10/15/2014 6:37 AM  #5


Re: Power brakes and cams

Thanks for the replies, keep advice and opinions coming.

I agree with the weight of the car and power brakes, BUT the boss only made one request for this car, she said paint it any color you want, build the motor how you want, any exhaust you want, BUT it must have power steering and power brakes. We all know if the wife is on board with the build, it makes things much more enjoyable.

The car is light, so it really won't take a lot of power to be fun ( I am shooting for 1 HP per 10 pounds, 250-270 HP). I want it to have enjoyable street manners, good low end and nice throttle response.

     Thread Starter
 

10/15/2014 12:29 PM  #6


Re: Power brakes and cams

My last engine had way too much cam (or just enough if that is your preference) and I only could get 11" of vacuum at idle. Even with that little vacuum, 90% of the time the power brakes worked flawlessly - no special check valves or vacuum cans. There were a few times where they would get hard after the engine droped below 1500 for a while, but bliping the throtle would instantly give me the vacuum I needed to easily slow down. After a few years, I developed a habit of engine braking when the brakes got hard, I would let the clutch back out to increase the engine speed enough to develop vacuum. It took finese since the sudden brake assist would suddenly launch you through the windshield. I put well over 50k miles of daily commuting on this engine over three years before I sold the car to finance my 66 restoration. My number 1 regret was that I didn't put that engine in the 66, and instead I put a bone stock 5.0 in there.

Other than the tear-inducing fumes, my wife didn't even mind driving the car. The noise bothered her, but the speed more than made up for it.

BobN

 

10/15/2014 3:12 PM  #7


Re: Power brakes and cams

Use a larger booster than those aftermarket "bolt-on",  7" diameter boosters and you will not have a problem.  Think of how many Fox 5.0 Mustangs ran around with E cams installed and they all retained their power brakes.

A Fox single diaphragm booster should work fine.  Also consider the pedal ratio will be stronger than the Fox ratio, so even if you do lose some vacuum, you will still have decent brakes.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

10/15/2014 3:35 PM  #8


Re: Power brakes and cams

Just finished.."tuning-around" on my 66 with a 5.0...Windsor jr. heads.....edelbrock RPM intake(knock-off) and 600 cfm Edelbrock carb. It was producing 15" of vacuum!
Everbody is always giving me "jazz" cause I like the big cam with the "snotty idle"!
Sooooo my camshaft(230-236@050......108LSA) should work just fine with power brake booster!?!
Might give you a little guidence toward your selection.
Keep in mind......cams for carbed engines are different than ones designed for FI. FI cams WILL work in a carb'ed engine butt usually the LSA is 112* or more in a FI application. LSA (along with duration)determines rpm range. 112*LSA cams will peak usually around 6500/7000rpm(long gradual power curve).......106* or 108* LSA usually around  5500/6000 rpm(a peakier curve...more pointed).
Short dirt track engines use 106/108 degree LSA ........longer speedway/road course engines use 112 or so.
FI computer contorlled engine usually don't behave very well with a cam less than 112*.
I think.....since most guys now days have FI engines.....Comp Cam and others naturally feature FI friendly sticks.(112-114LSA)
That's why I suggested going with a custom ground cam. (most companys don't charge any extra to custom grind a cam)
You CAN advance a camshaft to move the power range a little lower(and peak a little lower) to help it with "street manners" butt generally a tight LSA will rev quicker to the top of it power curve 5000/5500rpm.
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

10/15/2014 3:50 PM  #9


Re: Power brakes and cams

Mustang Steve, I plan on sending my Falcon pedal assembly to you for modifications ( just been crazy with the kids), but the set up we discussed included of corse the clutch quadrant but also the brake booster. Is the booster you will be sending me what I need for what i am trying to do? 

It seems that most cams that I like are at 108 LS, they tend to have more duration and less lift. I would like to keep the lift modest since it has stock heads and pistons (dont want any clearance issues).

Cam selection scares me because I know its the one item that can really screw thing up and not fun to change, thats the only reason I was looking at the E cam, had used it in the past and it seemed to work. I guess the next step is to touch base with some cam company's.

     Thread Starter
 

10/16/2014 5:52 AM  #10


Re: Power brakes and cams

hello;

I listed cams that fit your criteria to a T.

You can not run a 108 lsa cam if you want 17 hg of vacuum because it will have low vacuum due to the amount of overlap. you will likely not get 270 hp with 17" of vacuum either with those heads.

You can buy a vacuum reservoir, and pump and put around a 268 duration 110 lsa cam in it.


 

Last edited by barnett468 (10/16/2014 9:19 AM)

 

10/16/2014 6:42 AM  #11


Re: Power brakes and cams

Kar wrote:

Thanks for the replies, keep advice and opinions coming.

I agree with the weight of the car and power brakes, BUT the boss only made one request for this car, she said paint it any color you want, build the motor how you want, any exhaust you want, BUT it must have power steering and power brakes. We all know if the wife is on board with the build, it makes things much more enjoyable.

The car is light, so it really won't take a lot of power to be fun ( I am shooting for 1 HP per 10 pounds, 250-270 HP). I want it to have enjoyable street manners, good low end and nice throttle response.

That is a realistic goal.  ENJOYABLE STREET MANNERS.   In that case, why not get a cam having those characteristics?  That means MORE CONSERVATIVE.  You will have more low end torque and the car will drive smoother so you can enjoy it.  The boy-racer huge cams sound impressive at the track, but in reality that is not where you will be driving.  Way back when I built a 289 for my daughter's 65 coupe, I installed Crane's smallest performance cam they made at the time.  That car was awesome to drive and much more fun out of the hole than my 400HP 351W in my fastback.  It made power in the usable range and was out of wind by 5,000.  And it really pulled hard without having to wind out the 289.

Some want to hear the rumpety-rump and put up with bucking and no low end torque.  I guess I have outgrown all that and now just want to feel the power when I punch it and my rump gets pushed back in the seat.  Anyone that says that is just old age needs to line up with me at the quarter mile starting line to test which theory works best.  And yes, I WILL have the A/C running, and yes, my power brakes will be functional.

Kar, the booster I use is a 9" diameter single diaphragm unit.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

10/16/2014 4:25 PM  #12


Re: Power brakes and cams

if you are running roller lifters, try a stock 5.0 H.O. cam from a 87-93 Mustang GT. I am running one in my 66 with a 5.0 and it has great low end torque and is very responsive. I got mine used on ebay for next to nothing. My car has a carb, not injection and I am very happy with the way it runs. 

Last edited by zakdaddy99 (10/16/2014 5:57 PM)


Good, fast or cheap. Pick any two...
 

10/29/2014 12:58 PM  #13


Re: Power brakes and cams

Kar I am having similar issues with my brakes underwhelming me on what I think they should do. My Cam isn't anything radical. Camshaft (Comp-Cam) FS XE262H-10 
Specs:         Int    Exh
Adv Dur:     262    270
Dur @ .050    218    224     Lobe Sep: 110.0
Valve Lift:    .493    .500

But when I had a shop try to help with my timing they found my Vacuum pressure was too low. They blocked off the non PCV valve cover that had a breather cap to gain more vacuum. But I am wondering if I still have low pressure for the Master Cylinder I have.

Short story long....
I was reading some online resources and came across these two articles on troubleshooting where to look for problems with Brakes.
http://www.roadkillcustoms.com/hot-rods-rat-rods/hot-rod-power-brake-booster-test.asp#axzz3HXuYPaR1
and
http://www.mbmbrakeboosters.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=12:what-to-do-if-you-suspect-your-brake-booster-is-not-working&catid=7:diagnosing-brake-system-problems&Itemid=15

I hope this helps.

Ed

 

 

10/29/2014 2:56 PM  #14


Re: Power brakes and cams

In the theory of keeping a handle on the expenses and spending my dollars wisely, I think I might use the stock GT cam ( I have it ).

The stock cam is:
ADV DUR - 266/266
DUR @ .050 - 210/210
LIFT - .444/.444
LS - 115
Nothing fancy, but it has been proven over and over that it is a good street cam, makes good low RPM TQ, idles good, and responds good to a 3.73 gear set.

Without adding some better heads, I dont feel like the cam change is worth while. I would like to upgrade to roller rockers for other reasons than just performance, and I could always go with 1.7's vs the 1.6's for a little more lift.

Down the road if I decide to do a real rebuild on the motor with some nice heads, then I can buy a cam that is better suited to my combination. You never know, as light as the Falcon is with the 3.73 gear, the stock 5.0 with a good carb and exhaust system and I might be happy. Should idle smooth, have good vacuum, and good throttle response.

     Thread Starter
 

10/29/2014 3:33 PM  #15


Re: Power brakes and cams

 I've read that the 5.0 HO cam is actually around 204/204 duration @.050.  I tend to believe it as mine is done by 4800 rpm.  Adding GT40 heads and 1.7 rollers gave it a boost above 3000, but still done by 4800.  I've been wondering if it's maybe the wide LSA and carb combination.


jerry
 

10/29/2014 7:33 PM  #16


Re: Power brakes and cams

jerryF wrote:

 I've read that the 5.0 HO cam is actually around 204/204 duration @.050.  I tend to believe it as mine is done by 4800 rpm.  Adding GT40 heads and 1.7 rollers gave it a boost above 3000, but still done by 4800.  I've been wondering if it's maybe the wide LSA and carb combination.

Could retard it and find out! Even if you retard it 4* still probably be done  by 5.
6s6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

11/02/2014 7:48 PM  #17


Re: Power brakes and cams

You might look into running Rhoads lifters: http://www.rhoadslifters.com/
They are supposed to produce a little more vacuum at idle.  I have them in my non-roller 302, which does have a healthy cam, but I haven't started it yet.


Cheap, Fast, Good:  Pick Any Two
 

11/03/2014 7:23 AM  #18


Re: Power brakes and cams

jerryF wrote:

 I've read that the 5.0 HO cam is actually around 204/204 duration @.050.  I tend to believe it as mine is done by 4800 rpm.  Adding GT40 heads and 1.7 rollers gave it a boost above 3000, but still done by 4800.  I've been wondering if it's maybe the wide LSA and carb combination.

the gt40 heads have slarge combustion chambers and do mot flow much more than std hgeads . . if you did not mill then to around 58 cc's then you will not be getting the optimum power from them regarding compression . . salso,m if you do not have at least sround 32 degrees of advance at around 2800 rpm you will be down on both power and rpm . . if you do the suggestions above you should run around a 600 cfm vacuum secondary carb . . you could also run a 650 and if it bigs when the secondaries hit, just put in a stiffer secondary spring.
.

 

Last edited by barnett468 (11/03/2014 7:27 AM)

 

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