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3/14/2015 10:20 AM  #1


Manual steering and 17in wheels?

First issue is the steering box is probably untouched seeing as the car was plain jane, no ps,  it looks like the box may be leaking after being cleaned up a bit. It looks as if its just catching dust.  It works great as far as being smooth in operation wo the tie rods attached lol.  It does have some play but not too bad for its age,  so how can it be topped off and how can I tighten it and how do I know if it just needs redone completely?  Also I'm not beyond just redoing it but I really want 17s on the car and I'm a bit scared of the response I will get from this idea lol.  So then what would be the simplest/cheapest way to improve the steering or go to ps?

 

3/14/2015 10:38 AM  #2


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Do a little search as there were some posts a few months ago regarding filling the steering box with lube...6Sally6 did one, I think.

As for adjusting the box, there is a procedure that required measuing the torque to move the shaft off center as measured with an inch pound torque wrench on the steering wheel nut.  I can't recall where I read it but a little Google search should turn it up. 

As for easy PS, well, that's prolly a can of worms due to the various opinions.  I had stock PS for many miles and other than a bit of center wander and low return to center, I liked it just fine.  The center wander turned out to be a poorly adjusted box which got fixed when I traded the box to MS and the poor return to center was, I believe, due to having a manual steer idler arm rather than a PS idler arm.

Lots of guys like the idea of R&P and they do drive nice if done correctly.  A number of us have tried the Borgeson integral box and it's a fairly easy conversion and cheaper than R&P but the jury seems to be out on drivability and reliability.  Again you can search the posts for the various opinions to date.  I have one with the stock PS idler arm (seems most guys haven't used the correct Idler, IMO)  but I don't have any miles on it.  Will offer a report after the Bash trip in Sept.

I don't know why 17" wheels would make a big difference in steering effort unless you are talking 17" WIDE.

BB

Last edited by Bullet Bob (3/14/2015 10:40 AM)


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

3/14/2015 11:15 AM  #3


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Manual steering w/ my 225 x 17" works just fine in my car.  I haven't felt it was worth the effort to upgrade to power steering, since I don't try to go to the grocery store w/ it.

 

3/14/2015 11:40 AM  #4


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Trotb4UGallop wrote:

Also I'm not beyond just redoing it but I really want 17s on the car and I'm a bit scared of the response I will get from this idea lol.  So then what would be the simplest/cheapest way to improve the steering or go to ps?

All three of my mustang ride on 17s.  One with 18s in the back....not sure why you would be afraid or responses.  Some people like the looks, other people don't, some people like the performance, other people don't see it....all one big happy family.


 


Nick - 65FB 410C AOD 'D.T.' - 67FB 347 T5 'Cruiser' - 68FB 408W T5 'Brute'
 

3/14/2015 1:04 PM  #5


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

If the tires are overall taller than stock, which 17s usually are in the combos people run on these cars you may actually reduce the effort a little bit.  Width is what would increase the effort, which has probably gone up from stock as well.  So if the height increases and the width increases you may end up at a wash in terms of effort. 

Your front end alignment probably makes as much if not more difference in steering effort anyway.  Positive caster helps with high speed stability, but costs in terms of steering effort.  As changes in camber have affects on dynamic caster I would also posit that negative camber has some of the same effects.  Toe in also helps with high speed stability, but hurts initial turn in on corner entry, so that probably doesn't help effort much either. 

 

3/14/2015 4:28 PM  #6


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Thanks everybody, I searched the forum for ps upgrades and there is too much listed to just easily decide on devoting myself to a certain direction wo an extra grand or plans on modifications that are basically custom while my setup will generally work in theory to me.  Last time I drove it the car had 13s that were tiny but I couldnt tell it was manual unless it was sitting still.  I figured somebody would tell me I'm either crazy,  a bodybuilder or looking to break something lol.  If I can just service my steering box then that will be fine, Id rather concentrate on getting the car assembled if thats the cheaper/faster thing to do.  Love the cars dodgestang,  what type of backspacing and rear-end do you have installed on the green one?  On the looks I like rims in the 15 to 18 sizes,  bigger is better if it will not affect performance in a negative way.  Newer cars have bigger rims to appeal to people more and new age restomods imo sort of mimic whats popular in the modern automotive industry but in a much more appealing way then modern cars.  I'd imagine that w the 1in arning drop properly aligned there would be more rubber planted on the ground so at slower speeds espicially there may be more effort involved to steer.  I saw the roller bearing idler arm but I have already purchased a new idler and dont know what percentage it would improve it for the cost?

     Thread Starter
 

3/14/2015 5:18 PM  #7


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

I used the borgenson box and LOVE it, Steers wonderfully...
Howard

 

3/14/2015 5:20 PM  #8


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

I drove Ramses' 66 with his 17" wheels and was amazed it felt like the car had power steering.  Not a quick rato box and at the time did not have Shelby drop done.
It depends more on the amount of caster you are running and the steering ratio than the diameter of the wheel.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

3/14/2015 6:30 PM  #9


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

I have 17" wheels and 235 tires on my 66 coupe with the original manual steering box. It drives like power steering. The box is the original 6 cylinder with all new v8 steering and suspension parts and the Shelby drop. It drives really nice. Somewhat of a challenge to park but not terrible.
For really good info on steering boxes try strangersite.com.


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
 

3/14/2015 7:14 PM  #10


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Its good to know that there are positive experiences with the combo,  I forgot to mention that since its a slow moving project it allows me to spend a little bit more in some areas and I've ordered roller perches from Daze,  which I think I've read could assist in steering ease.  So the Daze specs for arning drop alignment would be ok or should they be catered to the manual steering?  It also will have all new ball joints and bushings so if all goes well maybe itll ride as good as any stock shelby of the comparable year and maybe better.  +1 to great people with great replies

     Thread Starter
 

3/14/2015 7:48 PM  #11


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

None of my cars has power steering.   The only time I ever thought about was when I was running 245 40 17 on the front of my 65.  Since my last tire purchase I couldn't get the tires I wanted I went with 235 40 17....and haven't had any issues or thoughts about PS since.

The 67 (green one) run a a 65/6 width rear end (2 inches narrowed than stock 67) and an 18x9.5 wheel with a 275 40 18 (intentionally plus sized on the outer diameter).  The back spacing is 5.0


Nick - 65FB 410C AOD 'D.T.' - 67FB 347 T5 'Cruiser' - 68FB 408W T5 'Brute'
 

3/14/2015 8:09 PM  #12


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

roller perches will have no afect on steering effort

a bearing idler arm will reduce steering effore slightly but will reduce automatic return to center a little

going from 13 to 17 will increase the steerimg effort a significant amount.

the shorter the sdewall. the stiffer it will be . . one really neeeds to be careul when using super low profile tires and stiffening the suspension . . its incredibly easy to make it rife like a rock.

irregarless of your tire combo you shoulf check them properly to insure they will not hit under ANY condition . . below is one method to do this.

remove front coil spring

install wheel/tire assy

jack up suspension in 2" increments

turn steering wheel lok to kock with eah 2" increase in suspension movement.

Last edited by barnett468 (3/14/2015 8:23 PM)

 

3/15/2015 6:33 AM  #13


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

I wouldn't recommend a roller bearing idler arm on a street car.  With that your return to center is basically a function of alignment only.  Its quite unnerving to expect return to center and not get it. 

As for looks I tend to think 17s are the max you should run on one of these cars.  To me, the Chip Foose, let's throw 20s on everything mentality isn't appealing.  I think in 10-15 years people will be looking at that trend the way we look at stinkbug stance and 30 color stripe jobs now.  These cars were meant to have some sidewall, and going from a 14" rim to a 17" rim is a huge deduction in sidewall and the way the car looks.  As always this is a matter of personal taste, so this is only my opinion, but if you look at the history of car crafting you'll see trends come and go, often leaving us with a "what the hell were we thinking" feeling looking back on them. 

 

3/15/2015 7:26 AM  #14


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

IMO, these older cars were meant to have some sidewall to the tires, and to a point look better that way, and I agree that 17" are about the biggest I would consider (18's on the back of the 67 fastback look good). 

The biggest argument for anything over 15" is simply tire availability, with 15" you have two or three options at best (BFG radial TA). With 17" you have a ton of options for better tires at a better price, and lots of size options.

My 68 coupe has 235-45-17 front, 275-40-17 rear, and is a manual steer car, and drives great. My wife only complains when parking it at a cruise-in.

I am going to attempt to put the same size wheel and tire set-up on my 63 Falcon, but I have installed the Borgeson PS box on it, we will see how it all works out.

 

3/15/2015 11:50 AM  #15


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

I agree w the foose statement,  a few of those overhaulin cars I'd been disappointed with if I was the owner besides the fact that the cars are done for free on that show.  Personally I love the look of the older T/A style two-tone torque thrust looking wheels w the 15s and I dont feel like that will go out of style but I've got 15s on my 88 gt and I find myself wanting to see more rim in the fender, it makes it look further away from stock.  As been stated its all about preference and what makes you happy just as long as you love cars in general eh.  So what is rife?  I also forgot that i read about the return to center problem, thanks for the input.  I wish I had a 17in wheel to test it with.

     Thread Starter
 

3/15/2015 12:53 PM  #16


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Not a fan of the stupidly oversize cartoon wheels with 1 1/2" rubber band tires either but think that 17" wheels are just fine on these cars. Biggest reason to run 17" imho is tire selection, as noted, room for modern big brakes and a shorter sidewall since I'm willing to sacrifice a little cushion for better performance in the turns. Having a bind free suspension with the right spring rates & shock valving is key to keeping the ol' back from complaining too much I s'pose, depending on one's sensitivities. . . Me, I must have a dead nerve to my keister. . . but I think that too many poeple are running too much spring (digressing). I like about 3 - 3 1/2" of sidewall on a 17, about a 225/45 - 225/50 on a 7" wide wheel which will fit easily on any early Mustang - I didn't see what year your car is. If you were to run Daze's alignment specs with the Arning drop, stock idler arm and a 225-235 tire manual box steering effort will be totally bearable. We took the factory PS off of my buddy's '64 Falcon Sprint recently and with 225s it's only a slight handful in parking lots - this is with the 16:1 box.

Then again, with the right combo of factors I think an 18" wheel can work just fine on an old stang without looking silly at all. I'm partial to the look of Mike Maier's '66 with enormous 18s. . .


(Pinto!)
 

3/15/2015 3:26 PM  #17


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Trotb4UGallop wrote:

So what is rife?

I think that should be "ride".  "D" and "f" are right next to each other on the keyboard, seems a logical typo.
 

 

3/15/2015 3:28 PM  #18


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

This is what I have on my 68 coupe: 245/45/17 on the rear, 235/45/17 and narrowed 1" on the front. Tires are Toyo Proxes radials. The Shelby drop on the front suspension. Stock non bearing idler arm. Roller bearing spring perches. Daze recommended "performance" alignment. 1" sway bar on the front, 3/4" sway bar on the back. 620 lb front springs with 1" drop and 5 leaf rear springs. KYB Gas-Adjust shocks. Borgeson power steering mod. 9" Trac-lok 3.25 rear end. Granada front spindles and disc brakes, 2002 V-6 disc brake mod by Ultrastang and Glen's65 on the back with 2002 V6 master cylinder and stock 68 Bendix booster. The ride is a little stiff, but I have had no drivability issues with the Borgeson steering in the four years since I installed it. That's what I have and it works for me.

Last edited by Ron68 (3/15/2015 3:31 PM)


68 coupe - 351W, 4R70W, 9" 3.25 -- 65 convertible - 289 4v, C4, 8" 3.00
 

3/15/2015 7:45 PM  #19


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

.

this is one of my cars that had 17's.

 

3/15/2015 8:37 PM  #20


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

I know you have gotten a lot of replies, but I will thow in another one...
I drove my 66 coupe with manual steering and 17" tires for a full year before I put in the Borgesson steering box so that my wife would be happy driving the car. During that time, I went through a set of tires. I am running 215/45/17 all the way around. With v rated tires, there is no difference when moving, but it is a little harder to turn the wheel if the car is sitting still. With Z rated tires it is a lot more difficult to turn the wheel once stopped, and only noticably harder to turn when rolling in a parking lot.

The 17's really modenize the look of the car. With the stock 14" wheels it looked a little silly next to our truck with 20's. It is also easier to get tires locally. I went with the 215/45 since it is a popular import tire and there are constantly deals.

Get the 17" rims and big brakes and you will love your car.
BobN

 

3/16/2015 11:39 AM  #21


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Ride/Rife,  Yeah I probably shouldn't take things so seriously lol.  I googled it and was totally confused.  On a side note I really think that more of these rides should be put on the ride height page.  Love the car barnett,  what rear-end and backspacing do those wheels have,  I'd like the same wheels but with more of the deep dish look,  my car is a 65 coupe.   I hear ya about the dead nerve comment,  I remember when I lowered my 88 gt about 2 in atw around (with lowering springs that were not cut) and installed new shocks and poly bushings I had a couple people riding in it and after a couple bumps one of them was like damn man I think you need new shocks,  not being a car guy he was puzzled when I said it had brand new ones.  After 2 years it really has settled in pretty nice and not so rough a ride now tho,  I work out of town so it doesnt get driven as much as I would like to drive it.

     Thread Starter
 

3/16/2015 3:01 PM  #22


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

One more thing I'll throw into this mix is...What size Steering Wheel are you using? I run 17's on the front of the Mach with 8 inch wide rims and when I went from the 13" Grant wheel, that i had on it with Power assist steering, back to the 15" Wheel it made a TON of difference.. Meaning it is much easier to steer the car with th elarger steering wheel. And Look Ma, no Leaks...Just sayin'  


"The OLDER I Get....The FASTER I Was..."
 

3/16/2015 7:18 PM  #23


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Good point on the steering wheel,  I bought the wheel 10 yrs ago or better and only took it out of the box twice since then but it may be 15,  I'll have to look.  Nice car

     Thread Starter
 

3/16/2015 10:59 PM  #24


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Excessive scrub radius contributes a lot to steering effort. The more backspace the rim has the less scrub radius you'll end up with.

An increase in overall tire height will slightly reduce scrub radius as well.

 

3/17/2015 7:33 AM  #25


Re: Manual steering and 17in wheels?

Jon Richard wrote:

Excessive scrub radius contributes a lot to steering effort. The more backspace the rim has the less scrub radius you'll end up with.

An increase in overall tire height will slightly reduce scrub radius as well.

Jon,
How does the tire height change the scrub radius?  Trying to learn all I can about that...


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

Board footera


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