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Due to running rich I had my Carb Jets reduced to 71primaries and 76secondaries. There is a little power loss but the Big one is this Rediculous TIP IN HESITATION.
the Car is a 69 Mustang, 351W, mild-heavy cam, 4" pistons, stock rods/crank, Edelbrock heads and intake. the carb was removed, jets changed and re-installed. NOTHING ELSE CHANGED OR MODIFIED aside from installing a 1" riser/carb. spacer.
Prior to this the Car ran STRONG! almost too strong. too aggressive and pedel sensitive. tires could not hold 1 through 3rd and not at full throttle. Now it seems confused. The Tip in Hesitation didnt exhist beofre, but now it occurs even in IDLE. once the pedal reaches half (give or take), it sounds as if there's a little 'Kickdown". A rev initially, then the drop, and then blast of secondaries. This takes away from Power Band and Enjoyement of Driving.......
ANY IDEA'S????
regards,
Jeff
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Turn the carb upside down and take a look at the transition slots in the primary side. You should only be able to see a very small opening below the throttle blades. An opening about as long as the slot is wide. If you have more than that showing, you need to lower the curb idle speed setting on the primaries, and increase the idle setting for the secondaries. The screw for that is only accessible from the bottom of the carb. This may also help your rich idle/exhaust fumes issues as well.
Be sure the accelerator pump driver is fairly tight, so the pump begins the shot as soon as the throttle moves. If you still have issues, a slightly larger squirter may be in order.
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Thank you Steve. I know little of Carbs, but I did take the IDLE SPEED screw into consideration. But unlike my 650, the setup looked more basic. I could not really find the screw. But I will Look more closely now. I hope Im understanding what you wrote with it in my hand!
I did also attack the Accelerator Pump Driver's. I did this through sheer logic. They are snug against the pump drivers. this helped Mildly.. as a test i made them more loose and it INTENSIFIED the problem durastically. Im Very Frustrated!
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You can also change the plastic pump cam out for a red one. It has a taller lobe and comes in quicker than the ones they supply on the carbs.
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M1, did you check to make sure the vacuum line from the carb to the distributor is still hooked up? It should be on the port that has NO VACUUM at engine idle.
Good Luck
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Have you done ANYTHING to the timing? Cammed-up engines want/need ALOT of initial advance. Will clean up the idle and stop/slow down that rich burn smell. And make it go like crazy!!
6sally6
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Pablo yes the vacuum advance is hooked up with a new hose and Sally, thanks for that advice, I will look into it! Do you have a rough idea of what would be an average advance for modified 351W's?
Mild-heavy cam, 4" pistons, edelbrock heads and intake, stock crank and connecting rods.
Does the Cam determine timing over other components, or is it a divided responsibility? When I get home from work tonight I will look into my comp cam roller model number and investigate
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A good rule of thumb is TOTAL advance(initial and mechanical) should be about 36* all in by 2000 rpm or so. Trick heads sometimes don't need that much advance.....it just depends on your situation.
Here's the part to think about when a "med/heavy cam" is used. Set the initial timing about 20*! You need a good starter/mini starter to spin it over when hot.
What is the specs on your camshaft? duration@050...LSA... lift? Compression ratio too.
In order to get that much timing in by 2000rpm you will need a set of light weight advance springs(Summit/Mr. Gasket/etc.) May need to make a bushing to go in the distrib to LIMIT the timing ABOVE 2000rpm. You don't want 36*@2000 and 56*@ 3200! Know what I mean? Good tutorials on the net about modifying duraspark distribs.
After this mod..........it will be "getting-away-from-you" again in the first 3 gears!!
I think it one of the best and least expensive mods a person can do on their Mustang.
6sal6
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If this issue didn't exist before your jet change, I suggest you re examin your jets. How did you decide on the 71's? I'm going through a very similar thing right now. Hook up a vacuum gauge so that you can see it while you drive. cruise on a long street uninterupted 35+ mph and record your vacuum reading...next go in and increase the primary jet sizes by at least three...if your vacuum goes up your on the right path, if it goes down, then you went too large. It could be that the jets you had in there were closer to what you needed and that it was running rich for other reasons.
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Thanks sally, I will post the Cam specs as soon I retrieve them!
Jeremy that's the first I've heard of that, so I appreciate the sound advice. The tip in hesitation did not exhist prior to jet change. The only other variable I changed was installing the 1" spacer. Timing and from what I know, the pumps and idle screws were not touched.
Would smaller jetting cause a tip in hesitation? If the answer to this is yes, then it must be the culprit, no?
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A bog or hesitation is not always a result of being to rich. It could be leaning out...or it could be a result of timing.
I've always thought for a street rod(mainly street) a DP is NOT the best choice. I guess its whatever YOUR comfortable with.
I like the big cam street rod....and I'm comfortable with the bucking and surging that SOMETIMES happens when driving in traffic.
6sal6
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I'd like to start just by saying that I"m not a holley guru..yet lol, however for days upon days i've been reading and tuning and have gained some serious experience.
I do have a couple of holley guru friends, and I was told to get rid of my holley bog issue be sure my mixture screws are set right and that my primary jetting is correct first before I move onto other systems
Logically speaking the problem didn't occur until you performed the jet change, so this also tells me that imo you should re examin your primary jetting and look elsewhere for your rich condition.
There are a lot of different systems on the carb other than jetting that can cause rich conditions...blown or incorrect power valve, even secondaries if the spring is weak or they're opening too early, etc...
I personally am running a 670 street avenger on a mild 5.0 putting out maybe 325 flywheel hp,...probably upwards of 75 or more hp less than what I'd think you make with your motor. I recently did the vacuum/cruise trick and bumped from a 65 jet to 68 jets on the primary side, and truthefully I think I can go up maybe to 69's,....so it's a guess, but 71's on a 750 carb sound a little small to me.
Check out youtube, both holley and summit racing have some great videos, and they go over the primary jetting systems and how to do the drive testing to find out what works best.
i'm not too familiar with the double pumper, but i've heard the same thing, it's kind of an all or nothing thing with the secondaries...you get gas when you hit it...nice thing about a vacuum secondary carb is that it's operated off vacuum, so you don't get 100% secondaries all the time, you get more or less what your motor asks for, this is how people can run oversize carbs on their engines that don't need it and be fine.
Last edited by jeremy (5/17/2013 9:42 PM)
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UPDATE!!!!!!!
[size=75]THANK YOU EVERYONE for your sound advice and idea's.
I placed the original Jet Configuration back (76Primaries and 80 secondaries)........Lowered the Floats as equal as possible on both, ADJUSTED THE CURB IDLE SCREW and advanced the timing.
For the first time in years i drove the entire day with the windows open and its the best its "Smelled" must be a 70% decrease in horrible odor!
Now everyone keep in mind, as far as carburetor "work" goes, this is the most extensive I've done/attempted. and cause of you, it was a success!
thank you everyone[/size]
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