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Evening Gentlemen -
Have a 65 Mustang Coupe with Granada Front disc brakes and Lincoln Versailles rear disc brakes - no booing at this point please. This car was started by a friend and I'm trying to finish it. 86' 302HO, 5 speed, Unisteer power rack and pinon, tilt wheel and power windows. Anyway, New Bendix Booster with New Ford Ranger 1" MC attached connecting to a Tee for the front brakes, New Wilwood adjustable proportioning valve for the rear.
Brake pedal is in the desired location, shaft length seems right - minor uptake then 3/4" to 7/8" of travel. Brakes bled to no air in system (RR, LR, RF, LF approach). Rear Disc adjusted up via ebrake. STILL NO PEDAL! At the bottom of pedal stroke, brakes will lock when turned by hand. If car not running and no vaccum to booster, I should still have a solid pedal - right? I'm at a loss where to go next. I've searched this forum for a thread that discuses the problem, but haven't found the answer. Please let me know where to look or provide your suggestions. Thanks
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Some things to check might be the booster to master cylinder push rod - could be too short or even way to long preventing the M/C from re-filling. It also sounds like a failure to bench bleed the master cylinder. See the Granada brake install section on the main MustangSteve site and take note of the caliper orientation as well. It may even be a bad master. However, also look on the MustangSteve site for the power brake conversion and the modified brake pedal. Has the brake pedal pin been relocated to provide the necessary stroke for a boosted system? I think that for safety purposes you may want to replace the "tee" and proportioning valve with an appropriate distribution/proportioning block which would also handle a failure of the front or rear system.
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A few things to verify ...
All calipers bleeders should be on the high side, otherwise air will collect in the caliper.
The 3/4 to 7/8", is this pedal travel?
You indicated no pedal, does the pedal go to the floor?
With the engine running is there any difference in pedal travel, or feel?
I believe the Versailles e-brake is the type that pushs the pad into the rotor, if so try adjusting the e-brake gradually and see if pedal travel or feel changes. If so, the e-brake needs to be adjusted accordingly.
I believe a 15/16" bore MC is a better choice.
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MC bench bled according to manufacturer instructions. Push rod is maybe .002 from MC piston in resting position. Disc brake bleeders positioned as per Steve's Mustang - rear on top, front at 10 or 11 o'clock position. 3/4" - 7/8" is travel of pedal shaft. Pedal goes to the floor. Haven't tested with engine running, figured I should have solid, maybe low, pedal. Rear pads are up against the rotor - when I apply ebrake they hold rotors firmly. 1" bore reccomendation from Steve's Mustang.
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It seems to me you've still got air in the system, and a little goes a long way. You've stated you've completed all of the usual steps, but - no offense - it's another matter of doing them correctly. For instance, it can be tricky to bench bleed the MC correctly and if you don't, you may never get all the air out of the system no matter how long you bleed the lines. I've spent a long time pumping the piston in the MC only to find that one of the return lines lifted out of the fluid, or that it wasn't sealed to the plastic fitting and air was getting in the line. ALso, some methods of bleeding the lines are better than others. I've never had success using a vacuum pump and I'm afraid of using my Motive pressure bleeder spewing brake fluid everywhere, so I always use the old standby of having my son or wife pump the pedal while I open and close the bleeder screw. So the only thing I can recommend is to do the steps over. Also, make sure all of the lines are below the MC and that the proportioning valve is wide open so there is no restriction to the rear lines.
Last edited by jkordzi (5/20/2015 8:16 PM)
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What about the brake pedal pin? Any brake lines routed above the level of the M/C? I guess I wouldn't assume that the new M/C is good - the symptoms sound a lot like a bad master. How is the master mounted and what is the pedal geometry?
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Thanks for the input - I used my vaccum pump to bring fluid to the rear and front - then switched to wife "down and up" method. Yes, MC can take a long time to bleed ( 60-70 pumps). I made sure bleeder tubes were submurged and not allowing air back into MC. Have done the above 3 times, Wilwood proportioning valve in the full "decrease" position. All lines are below the MC.
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I think the decrease position is the opposite of fully open. Third time - what is your pedal configuration? Is this a MustangSteve power brake conversion with the revised pedal ratio? Or a conversion that did not modify the pedal?
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I agree that it acts like a bad MC, but it bench bleeds perfectly. MC is mounted to Bendix Booster in correct position, pedal geometry is correct with curved pin in position. I had a combo proportioning pressure differential valve set up originally - had the same result - no pedal. Discovered pressure differential valve had moved toward rear and would not reset due to a bad "o" ring. I went to tee and adjustable valve to see if I could get brakes - no pedal. I'm about ready to go back to single MC with drum brakes! LOL
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I'll have to look into the decrease position setting (you might be right because I believe in that position it's at a 57% distribution rate), Brake petal is hung from Steve's Mustang roller bearing assembly.
Brake petal push rod attachment is curved where it attaches to the pedal.
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Might be a waste of time but maybe you could pull the M/C forward and measure the total travel of the actuator rod in case there is something wrong in the booster and you could also verify that it is pulling back to the fully retracted position. Something may be causing a hangup of the pedal or the pedal rod when installed. Did you measure the .002" clearance on the bench before the install or when the booster was already fully mounted in the car with the pedal attached? Is there anything that would prevent the pedal from coming fully back? Can you pull on the pedal and pull it back a little? Grasping at straws but sometimes a problem like this is so obvious that it is overlooked. Sure seems like you have done your homework which would tend to indicate a failed component.
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Have other's experienced a problem simular to mine? Were solutions found that might be listed in older threads? How would I search for these threads?
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What is the final distance between the relocated brake pedal pin and the center of the pivot?
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Please post a picture of the brake calipers showing bleeder orientation.
What bendix booster are you using?
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I measured push rod travel old MC vs new MC - on the bench. Total travel of old MC is 3/4", new MC is 3/4" but can be pushed to 7/8" max. I measured push rod travel at Booster - 7/8" max travel. Push rod returned to ready position by force applied by MC. Pedal returns to acceptable ready position. I know, this problem is driving me nuts.
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I know it will be some work but you can get brake line "plugs" to block off circuits. Although this should duplicate bench bleeding to a certain extent I would pull the inlet line to the proportioning valve and block off the rear circuit entirely. With some dripage, you will need to bleed this by loosening the plug under pressure. See how the system responds with only the front system active. I would think that you will have a good solid pedal under this setup. If the pedal is not solid, look at the calipers one more time to check the bleeders, and bleed once more. If you still don't have pedal it would almost have to point to the master. By the way, are the rubber lines new front and back? Collapsed lines can restrict flow under pressure but still allow you to bleed. Anyway, if the pedal is fully solid with the rear system disabled, the swap - cap of the front and then connect the rear and repeat. This should allow you to prove which system is working and which is not. If you can't get a solid pedal in either case, then the only thing left is the M/C.
Which outlets on the M/C are being used for front and rear?
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Steve - Bendix Booster I believe a 67' - 69' ford mustang - thick unit with vaccum intake at top - I believe they call it a "banded unit". Will take pictures for bleeder's tomorrow. Please confirm that rear disc bleeders are at top NOT bottom.
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GPatrick - front of MC is working rear brakes and rear of MC is working front brakes. I assumed with 1" bore, front and rear would be same - am I correct?
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GPatrick - Rubber lines in rear to calipers, stainless steel everywhere else - couldn't find SS for rear to caliper. Next try - I figured I would need to isolate front from rear and see what happens. I was hoping someone has had the same problem and had a fix. Thanks for all the suggestions.
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Well, the good news is that it has to be "something" - just need to figure out what "something" is. I think isolation is the next step that I would do. I do troubleshooting for a living and in many cases the most obvious problem is exactly what is wrong. When ever I hear from a customer "it can't be that" or "it can't be that, I checked it myself" I move those possible problems to the top of the list.
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Don't forget you can use this old trick. Preferably a clear line going from the bleeder valve into a small jar of Brake fluid to see if there is air or fluid pumping out. This also prevents you from sucking air back, because of brake fluid in the jar.
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Please post picture of the calipers and bleeder positions.
You asked if anyone has ever had this same problem. Yes, they have. It comes up alot. Usually the calipers are on the wrong side of the car with the bleeders pointing straight up.
I want to verify what you have rather than guessing at other stuff.
Since thst Bendix booster typically requires a power brake pedal for proper stroke, that is also suspect as to rod length and pedal configuration.
Steve's Mustang is not same as MustangSteve, so slso might be some confusion as to whose parts you are using.
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I have seen similar symptoms three times once when the calipers were in the wrong position as MustangSteve suggested twice when the wrong pushrod was used. I know tracing down an issue with someone elses work can be frustrating but take a step back, breathe and you will realize that there is air in the system even a faulty m/c would let you "pump up" some pressure. Find a friend or a local parts guy and compare your pushrod, pedal, and mount etc. to a stock 65-66 unit you must use the '65 mustang pushrod period
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falconeh wrote:
you must use the '65 mustang pushrod period
IF he had manual brakes I would agree, but he is using a 67/69 booster that has its own pushrod. That booster's pushrod is about 1" shorter than a 65/66 though and requires a pedal with alot different ratio.
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