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Hey there all Mustang fans and afficionados, allow me to introduce myself. Lets use Trainrek as a moniker since that's exactly what I am, lol. Also a newcomer to this forum and a new Mustang owner and of course seeking sage advice from those who have been down the scary Mustang road.
1967 Mustang Coup, mostly stock. Just a bit of engine mods, since I wasn't told what they are but from what I can tell, MSD, (red spark box), finned alum valve covers, 4V intake and 1426 feeding a bit of a lumpy bump stick.
Stock wheels and drums all round, sucks. Need upgrades but just not sure which what where. So many options, so many conflicting opinions
I cannot tolerate the god-awful steering and handling as everybody is aware of. The power steering is...scary. It was wandering dangerously above 50 MPH so I too k it to a local front end mech who put a in a new better idler arm and strut bushings and did a thorough check-up for me. Happy to know its 58K is really 58K mileage, is in great shape and all the rest of the steering and suspension is fine. ???
Still wanders and I now want to put in a rack? BUt I read I could pull the power hydraulics, and use an adapter and manual centre link. I would think this is a fast fix and would likely do it for me but I've got both shoulders surgically repaired and they're not that good now so, that option is guna hurt.
A well-known contributor and parts supplier suggested Borgesen power box. But this isnt going to fix the crap handling now is it? I mean, these cars have terrible bumpsteer and thats got to be fixed or there's no point. I duno. Any suggestions?
Thanks all.
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Love to "work" on new guyz Mustangs!!
Welcome to the forum.
For the bucks Mustangsteve has a good disc brake update. I went the Scarebird option and it stops waaay better than the drum set-up butt.....he has Ford style stuff for about the same price and better customer service.
The steering.......
you COULD do the manual swap over trick for low cost and these Mustangs are so light the only time you hafta struggle with the steering is maybe parallel parking. I'm old(sorta) and I don't have power steer. I think the manual steering kinda just goes with the experience of a classic car.
If you use more narrow front tires (ex. 205 or 215 65-15's or 16's) then it parks even easier.....save the fat tires for the rear!
Have a look at the Shelby alignment and NOT the factory settings. Can be found on Daze's web page or someone on here can spit out the numbers. Makes a BIG difference in how it handles. It has more caster which is the secret.
A rebuild of the steering parts(which you have started) and maybe the roller perches, little bit stiffer front springs, which will lower it a little(while your in there) will help. One piece export bar and Monte Carlo bar and 1" sway bar made a dynamic change in mine..for the better.
I like the part about the lumpy camshaft
Enjoy the experience and welcome!
6sally6 I have MANUAL front discs..stops good. Not throw-you-through-the-windsheild....butt good.
Last edited by 6sally6 (2/13/2016 10:52 PM)
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Welcome to the forum
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For the steering the rack and pinion kits are in my opinion unimpressive. They cost 2-3x what the Borgeson setup costs and typically you are going to have to live with a reduced turning circle. Borgeson all the way if you want power. Manual isn't bad either, that's what I still have in my '67 going on 23 years of ownership. Parking can be a chore, especially with wider front tires, and power is on my to do list, but right now its behind redoing the engine bay and installing my 347 (not yet built), so it may be a few more years before I get to that.
The drum/drum brakes have to go. I too would advise getting a kit from Mustang Steve. I used a Stainless Steel Brakes Corp kit about 22 years ago and it was not complete and lacked proper instructions. Be aware that power brake and manual brake pedals are different in a '67. That's one of the little details SSBC left out of their incomplete kit and instructions.
On to the suspension. Alignment makes a lot of difference, but dealing with a car that is now closing in on 50 years old the first order of business is to make sure that the suspension is in proper working order. If you've got worn out bushings, wasted shocks, etc. all the alignment in the world isn't going to help. There are about as many suspension options for the '67 Mustang as there are fish in the sea, and you can spend anywhere from a few thousand to twenty grand. For a good street car that you will drive hard on occasion I would stick with mostly factory style hardware. Install some good bushings (polygraphite or delalum), good shocks (I'm still using my KYBs and still happy with them), decent springs (don't get crazy on the rate or it'll ride like a 3/4 ton truck), and the Shelby drop is a worthwhile mod. The get your alignment set. Look for 1 degree of negative camber, about 1/16" toe in, and all the positive caster they can give you. Wider and modern rolling stock also greatly improves handling. Tires that aren't used regularly go bad after about 3 years of sitting, so if the car's been garaged a lot consider new rolling stock at the very least. Its never going to be a new car in the handling department, but you can make massive improvements over what its doing now.
Thank you for the warm welcome.
I am very pleased with everyone's responses on these issues. Thank you 6sally6 and TKO for your input and suggestions, they will be used.
I had some suspicions on racks buuuutt..now its confirmed. I PM'd CSRP who graciously informed me of the alternatives to rack and pinion conversion. I was told the geometry goes wonky and turning radius is crazy. As it is, the car turns a pretty tight radius so keeping with the factory stuff is wise I figure. Just doesn't need so much assist in the steering. The power steering is so light, no feedback. I'm sure this is nothing new to anyone, and I'm not a bit surprised. I've never driven any Ford that was hard to turn the wheel, eg; like one finger slalom is easier in a Ford than other vehicles.
So, I think the manual steering trick is what I'll do first. Oh wait a sec, BRAKES!!...maybe readers know if theres a kit available for a bit of suspension upgrade, including front disc brakes? I'd hate to scour the 'net for sources, only to find out I've made a grave error in judgement, spent double. Been there before.
I gess power discs would be better maybe, do these cars really need power brakes? Seems like a dimwit question but it is a light car and actually does stop fairly well with manual drums. Any opinions on power front disc vs maual front disc?
I was wondering if someone has had the chance to try out manual discs and power discs, if there's a real need for the power assist. I mean its not a great distance required to stop and even is reasonably straight, a bit of left tug but a bit more pressure and it evens out but ya, the front drums gotta go, like now, for certain.
The steering parts would just be the removal of the power valve and install manual center link, or so I've read, does that sound right? Or is there an adapter that's also required?
All info is greatly appreciated, and thanks for assisting in the "build" and upgrades.
I will post some pics of the car soon.
Ahh, another thing I am wondering about is windshield and rear window seal leaks, I've a bit of a wet floor on drivers front floorpan. Nothing splashy but dampness and I dont see any obvious spots rain could come in. Is there an inherent waterproof problem with these cars? I can tell the trunk seal is a bit hard in a few spots, but supple mostly. Like a painter got some chemical on it or something maybe, I may need new weatherstripping seals. Most seem fine, no cracking or obvious rot but rubber deteriorates, and in the worst of places.
Do we have sources for such parts?
Thanks to all, again.
Trainrek
Delta, BC
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I would advise against throwing out the factory power steering this early in the game. I can guarantee you will hate the manual steering, especially with your quick ratio P/S box that will make it that much more difficult. When everything is set up right, it works fine, plus you already own it. Your alignment tech probably aligned the car to factory specs which includes ZERO caster. Adding caster will make the car go straighter down the road without wandering, PLUS it makes it a bit harder to steer, so that fits in with the factory stuff. Is there better stuff out there? Probably. But the factory stuff can work quite well.
Brings up another thought... What is some previous owner added the power steering and utilized a manual steering box? That would make it super effortless to steer and have no feedback. Count the turns lock-to-lock to determine which you have.
I am glad you found the forum. Everyone here is eager to help out as you have read. Most on here speak from direct experience from actually doing the stuff they talk about rather than repeating something they read on a forum or magazine article. Always ask if somebody who is suggesting something has actually done it on their own car, and what their outcome was.
There are lots of mods out there for sale these days, most in my opinion are just designed to lighten your wallet with not so much gain in performance. Just because something is for sale does not mean you need it necessarily.
My advice for a new Mustang owner is to make sure the car is mechanically sound so you don't get stranded or have/cause an accident. That means checking wheel bearings, brakes and steering linkage, and make sure there are no fluid leaks that can cause problems. Don't drive on tires more than about five years old. That can also cause wandering if the tires are in less than perfect condition.
When you plan to do something, run it past the forum first. There are some things that you will want to avoid, and there is no way for you to know that unless you ask first.
Again, welcome to FYIFORD. Let the fun begin!
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Sally & TKO gave you some very good advice & all of us can agree that we do things differently, so don't expect us to say the same things.
Some comments:;
Safety first. The most dangerous things on your car are steering, suspension, and brakes in no particular order. First, fix the one in the worst shape. Then go down the line.
I bought my '66 new with 11" manual disk brakes. They served me well for 40 years - particularly after changing out the stock calipers for SSBC units. When I migrated to 16" wheels I upgraded the brakes to 12". Again, manual, after all the car weighs less than 3,000lb. They are much better. I see no need for the extra work needed to install power brakes. If you go to 17" wheels you can mount 13" brakes. As to vendors, I cannot say any of them is bad. I have had good luck with SSBC, & Wilwood. MS's kits get rave reviews around here.
A worn suspension can be very bad. Make sure anything that rotates (like ball joints, steering arm ends, etc) is up to spec. The bushings for the strut rods are particularly critical because they control toe and caster. Stock will work just fine. Things that will really help include: GT springs = a little stiffer than stock and also lower the car some. Shelby/Arning drop - It's amazing how much better your car will handle with this change alone. Upgraded shocks - everyone has a different idea as to which is best. My favorites over the years were the old Gabriel Striders. Alas, they are no longer made. Finally, the very best thing you can do for your suspension after new parts is a Monte Carlo Bar and Export Brace. You might be able to get by with the Monte Carol Bar alone. They keep the shock towers from flexing together. Wheel alignment will not change with them installed.
Steering - Way back when my car had very loose steering. All the adjustment had been taken up. I rebuilt the steering box and it helped, but it still was somewhat flakey. Later, I installed a manual R&P from TCP and have never turned back. It steers as solidly as my new cars. (Others like the Borgenson as it is a straight replacement for stock.) I cannot believe it is as good as a R&P. I'm now having the old manual R&P replaced by a power unit. - I'm 75 and like my creature comforts.
I hope this missal helps you. Working on our Mustangs is a great hobby. Let's keep it going.
Last edited by lowercasesteve (2/13/2016 11:14 PM)
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From everything I've read the Borgeson setup offers reasonable assist when you need it, but not overbearing assist when you don't. The problem with the factory setup is that the goal back in the day was to allow grandma to turn the wheel with her pinky. All power assist cars from the day drive like that. This is why I still have the manual steering. I have all the parts for a factory power setup sitting on a shelf, but I drove a factory power car once and decided it was very much not how I wanted the car to handle. The Borgeson system was the next step in power assist, using a power box instead of ram assist. They use the Saginaw pump, which is a better design than anything Ford ever put out. Sure, you could argue that the next step was rack and pinion, and I can't think of a car made today that doesn't use R&P, but my issue with the R&P kits is the cost and the reduced turning radius. I know guys have built their own setups that get around the turning radius issue (and likely the cost issue too), but that's not something for the uninitiated. If you want bolt in convenience coupled with reasonable cost and maintenance of the factory turning radius I think Borgeson is the only real option. Here's a link to the Borgeson systems:
For the suspension I'm going to bombard you with some stuff here. First, the upper A-arm drop, if you want to do it, here's a link to the right setup. There are 1-3/4" drops offered, but what they neglect to inform you is that these will destroy a factory balljoint in a matter of a few miles. You need to run either the Negative Wedge kit sold by Mustangs Plus, or run modified balljoints to make the 1-3/4" drop work. Keep in mind, this will lower the front end 1" if you do not run taller spring isolators.
$srccode=MUEMVWEB
Here's a decent kit for the suspension. You'll still need some other odds and ends (front end bushing kit, taller spring isolators if you use the 1" drop and don't want the front end to sit 1" lower, spring perches), but this is reasonably complete and has good springs and shocks with better swap bars to reduce body roll.
$srccode=MUEMVWEB
Here's a poly front bushing kit:
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Front spring perches with poly bushings:
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Front spring perches with roller bearings:
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1" tall front spring isolators (1/4" and 3/4" are also available if you do the drop and want some of the lowering):
$srccode=MUEMVWEB
Now, chassis stiffness makes a huge difference in handling. The stock chassis is not very stiff, lacking full framerails front to rear. Instead there is a frame stub at the front and another at the rear and a floorpan in the middle. One of the best handling mods you can make is a set of subframe connectors which will bridge the gap and tie the front and rear stubs together. This also allows for better handling with less spring rate and a more comfortable ride. Another quick and easy thing is to install the engine compartment export brace, which reduces the tendency of the shock towers to flex inwards under heavy cornering loads.
On to brakes. Here's a link to Mustang Steve's page for power conversions. I personally like the power assist. I don't think its too much of a hassle to fit once you know what's required (you have to change brake pedals and modify the firewall a bit).
As for the brakes themselves, here's a link to MS's page on his disc kits. The one thing I'd caution is that the bigger brakes require bigger wheels. A 13" disc isn't fitting inside a 15" wheel, so if you want that much brake you need to be willing to upgrade you wheels. If you have any questions just ask him.
That gives you a lot to digest, and of course this stuff is my opinion and others may feel differently, but knowing what I've learned with my '67 over the past 23 years this is the way I would go if I had it all to do over again (and these products all existed at the time). Hope this helps more than it confuses.
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Steering and brakes can make you dizzy. ask questions. On my 65 coupe I have the Granada conversion I also upgraded to MS power brakes setup. I amd using a power rack and pinion from Steeroids, Thinking safety I always want to be able to stop and turn. Like everyone else I do recommend a Monte Carlo bar and the export brace, get rid of the flexing.
Suspension is another topic that will get your head spinning I did the Shelby drop on the upper arms and had the performance alignment. Today tires are built differently than in the 60's. This is a great site and you will get great answers here, Just ask away!!!
Last edited by bearcat (2/14/2016 9:10 AM)
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I really think we need a standardized template to answer questions like this that come up
Something like:
1) greeting Hello and welcome to the forum, family freindly site, please read rules before posting, safety first, yada yada yada
2) tell us about yourself
Where are you from?
What skills do you have?
What kind of budget do you have?
Can you do the work yourself?
Do you have tools?
Are you willing to learn?
Do you have a garage or workspace?
Are you patient enough to wait for it to be a safe car before driving it?
Do you have time to invest in a project?
What is your purpose with the car? daily driver, track car, weekend cruiser, show car,
Are you more interested in the journey or do you want to jump to the last page of the book?
Who is going to be driving the car? you or your wife, or your children?
How observant are you? Do you notice strange noises, car isn't braking like it did before, fluids leaking, strange smells like exhaust fumes in the car?
3) tell us about the car
4) disclaimer
safety first
ask questions before doing anything, no such thing as a stupid question
seek opinions and advice before doing anything
be patient while waiting for replies
the everlong debate on Mods
to each his own. My taste vs your taste.
safety Mods
Required mods vs optional mods
Mod options
performance mods
cool factor mods
the positive and negative of certain mods
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Take that point about tires to heart. Tires today are vastly superior to tires of yesteryear. They are much better now than even 20 years ago, let alone 50.
Things have also changed suspension wise. Our cars were set with typically 0 degrees of caster, or worse negative caster. This helps make the wheels easier to turn with manual steering, and though power assist was an option the majority of cars were still manual steering, so the suspension was designed around that. Under the constraints of the factory system you're lucky if you can get 1.5 degrees of positive caster. 4WD trucks today typically have at least 4 degrees positive caster, and its not uncommon to see 6 degrees positive in a car.
Suspension design has also improved. Our cars need some static negative camber, because they gain positive camber as the suspension cycles. Set up with 0 degrees of camber you would end up with 1.5-2 degrees of positive camber under compression. See, ideally 0 degrees is where the tire has its best contact patch, but 0 degrees going in a straight line only helps you so much, because when the suspension compresses and gains positive camber your contact patch becomes less than ideal when you need it most. The idea is set it up with some negative camber so that under compression you achieve the ideal 0 degrees of camber and the widest possible contract patch, keeping the car glued in a corner. The reason the 1" upper A-arm drop is so effective at improving handling is that is improves the camber curve and reduces the positive camber gain as the suspension cycles. Typically the jigs for doing this move the upper A-arms rearward slightly too, which improves positive caster as well. Again, modern suspensions don't typically need to be set up with negative camber, or very little, maybe 0.5 degrees because better design has yielded suspensions that do not gain camber as they cycle.
Toe is usually set to zero, but as the suspension flexes under braking the wheels actually become toed out, which scrubs the tires and takes away traction that could be used to stop. So, much like the camber situation, you set up a little bit of toe in static, so that under braking the tires end up at neutral toe, giving you the best possible contact patch for braking. A little toe in also helps the car track straight on the highway (reducing wander). I've found that 1/16" is about as much as you can go, any more and you get noise in slow speed turns from the tires scuffing.
This can be heady stuff, but those three settings in a suspension are critical to how a car handles. A firm understanding of what they are and do is necessary before you can start modifying a suspension to change its characteristics. Here's a link to a very good book on Amazon that is both a great teaching tool and a great reference when it comes to chassis and suspension.
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Don't remember where I heard it or read it but when it comes to brakes you have to think about the other guy. If you plan to use the car much you'll be behind modern cars most of the time. And, they almost all have power disc brakes!
My suggestion is go with a power disc conversion. My first mustang was a 69 Mach 1 with a 351 and all drum brakes. I bought in the car in 1975 and even then a lot of cars could stop faster than me. I'm going with a disc conversion and adding a booster on my 68. Last brake conversion I did was swapping rear drums for discs in my 86 Mustang GT. Was kinda a pain in the neck but when I did that all I had was a cheap put it in the vice flare tool. Now I have a hydraulic flare tool so it should be interesting. Enjoy your Mustang.
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Definitely. You could plan your stops if it was just you on the road, so taking 200' to stop from 60MPH wouldn't matter. But the issue is everyone else doing unexpected and often foolish things. Drum/drum brakes were fine when that's what everyone else had. Now almost nothing is even disc/drum, almost everything is disc/disc. Yes, the brakes must haul down cars and trucks that are considerably heavier than those of yesteryear, but they also typically have wider tires giving them more available traction, and everything built since the '90s has ABS. While I'm personally not a fan of ABS, I know how to threshold brake, whereas most people don't and just jam the pedal when they get into trouble, so for the masses ABS has made driving safer.
A classic Mustang can get by fine with disc/drum setup because the car is pretty light. A '67 is probably in the 3,200lb range, whereas a Fox body was in the 3,500lb range, and the 2016s are in the 3,700 lb range. New cars are portly, so they need better brakes.
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Welcome Trainrek!! I'll just add my 2 cents. I have a 65 fastback that has pretty muck stock suspension and steering with the exception of progressive rate front springs and roller spring perches. otherwise I rebuilt everything else in the steering and suspension. I do have factory power steering which I sent off and had rebuilt. It handles just fine with NO bumpsteer! Brakes are Kelsey-Hayes front power disc and factory drum rear. It stops just fine! Dont discount the stock components.
When you start pricing parts, Rockauto usually has good prices on MOOG components and they usually have a 5% off code for members of this forum, just go to the swap meet page and do a search for Rockauto.
What part of the world do you live in??? We have members on here from about every state in the US and several other countries all over the world! Once again WELCOME!!
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Welcome to the group. Just don't forget to sit back and enjoy the ride, that's what its all about.
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Gonna give you the advice I got when I first started messin with cars. "Fix the whoa before increasing the go" in a word BRAKES. I did the Mustang Steve power brakes and front discs, Shelby drop and all new bushings etc up fron with 1" sway bar. In the process of installing a rebuilt manual box. Even with the old box it drives good. Only difficult to steer when parallel parking but I'm not any good at that with power steering. WELCOME. All the advice you need you will find right here. Good luck.
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MarkinSC wrote:
I really think we need a standardized template to answer questions like this that come up
Something like:
1) greeting Hello and welcome to the forum, family freindly site, please read rules before posting, safety first, yada yada yada
2) tell us about yourself
Where are you from?
What skills do you have?
What kind of budget do you have?
Can you do the work yourself?
Do you have tools?
Are you willing to learn?
Do you have a garage or workspace?
Are you patient enough to wait for it to be a safe car before driving it?
Do you have time to invest in a project?
What is your purpose with the car? daily driver, track car, weekend cruiser, show car,
Are you more interested in the journey or do you want to jump to the last page of the book?
Who is going to be driving the car? you or your wife, or your children?
How observant are you? Do you notice strange noises, car isn't braking like it did before, fluids leaking, strange smells like exhaust fumes in the car?
3) tell us about the car
4) disclaimer
safety first
ask questions before doing anything, no such thing as a stupid question
seek opinions and advice before doing anything
be patient while waiting for replies
the everlong debate on Mods
to each his own. My taste vs your taste.
safety Mods
Required mods vs optional mods
Mod options
performance mods
cool factor mods
the positive and negative of certain mods
Sounds good, but I get first dibs on the guys that state they have a big budget! LOL
REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on. |