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3/07/2016 9:59 PM  #1


Another charging issue...

I tried searching for past charging issues, but I haven't seemed to figure out the cause of my issue.  Here's where I'm at.  If you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to listen.
5.0 efi t5 Trunk Battery, Standard Starter swap.
Engine starts and runs, but I believe is suffering from low voltage after a short period.
Battery is brand new Optima.
Alternator is '94 130 Amp purchased two days ago to replace bad alternator.  Upon discovery of no charging and unable to find any other issue, I had O'Reilly test it, but they said it was Good.
Certainly possible that I wired incorrectly, however it seems pretty straightforward.

Currently I have Alternator, wired to mega fuse w/ 4g wire.  Mega fuse to Power Lug w/ 8g wire.  Power lug to new under dash fuse box w/ 8g wire.  Dash fuse box to solenoid w/ 8g wire.  Solenoid to battery w/ normal battery cable.  Solenoid is off 88 mustang, rather than the old '66 solenoid.

Yellow wire: connected to far side of mega fuse along with wire leading to power port.
White / black: connected to stator plug.
Green / red: connected to Red / Green at the back of the key, with the wires that also connect to the EFI relays and that power the MSD.
Engine off: Volt meter shows 12.6 volts at power lug, both sides of mega fuse and at alternator post.  Yellow connector also reads 12.6v
Key on: Wire that feeds Green / red shows 12.6v
Engine on: power lug, mega fuse, alternator post all show between 12.2 & 12.5, depending upon how long engine runs.

Thought maybe I had a bad ground, so I added an additional 8g ground from bell housing bolt to driver side frame.  No difference in any of the measurements.
Main ground for the battery is to a connector block in the trunk.  Connector block has 2g to rear frame rail.  Connector in trunk has 4g ground connected to ground block under dash.  Starter bolt also has 4g cable to under dash ground block.

Belt is Serpentine.  I do have a squeal that comes and goes that I did not notice with the prior alternator.  Squeal sounds like it's coming from tensioner, but I haven't confirmed it.
No A/C currently.  Headlights cause voltage to drop to 12.0 or 11.9.

Thanks for reading.
Randy

Last edited by soonerfan (3/07/2016 10:01 PM)

 

3/07/2016 11:18 PM  #2


Re: Another charging issue...

Do you have an alternator light??


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

3/07/2016 11:42 PM  #3


Re: Another charging issue...

Check for  power drain. Test light between ground point in trunk and neg post. Should be zero/light don't burn.. Close the doors and disconnect clock/radio. IF you show a drain..start pulling fuses until the test light goes out. Then you have isolated the "system" that is draining the battery.
6s6 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

3/08/2016 12:34 AM  #4


Re: Another charging issue...

Did you run the red/green direct to the back of the ignition switch ... or via the old I terminal on the old regulator plug??
If direct, you need either a warning light or 560 ohm resistor or both inline between the ignition switch and alt.

 


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

3/08/2016 6:52 AM  #5


Re: Another charging issue...

Is this how it's wired (based on your description)?  If so, think about wiring directly from the megafuse either to the solenoid or to the battery.  You need the most direct route possible (fewest mechanical/electrical connections) from the alternator output to the battery. 


Founding Member of the Perpetually Bewildered Society
 

3/08/2016 5:55 PM  #6


Re: Another charging issue...

I would check the mega fuse first to see if its good. When you test voltage with the headlights on are you checking at the battery or the alternator? Also I would do what John typed and try to make a more direct wire route from alternator to battery.

 

3/08/2016 6:34 PM  #7


Re: Another charging issue...

do you have the right length belt? if its too long, it will be too loose, making it squeal, and not putting out enough.

do you have the right size pulley on alternator? incorrect size pulley will not turn alternator fast enough at lower rpms.

do you have another alternator to try?

can you move the battery to the front of the car closer to the alternator and see if you have an improvement? maybe the length of wire is too long from front of car to back.


GET HER DONE BULLETBOB!!! ..
 

3/08/2016 6:38 PM  #8


Re: Another charging issue...

Can you make a good jumper to measure voltage form the negative of the battery to ground of the alternator. See if your getting a low reading around 1 volt. If you got a bad connection it will rear it ugly head when you start putting load on the alt. Are all your ground connections cleaned to bare metal? Sounds like your wired correctly. I agree with John Ha, the battery, Mega fuse, fuse block and solenoid should probably all connect directly to the power lug.

Last edited by wsinsle (3/08/2016 6:41 PM)


If this forum can't fix it, it isn't broke.
 

3/08/2016 9:56 PM  #9


Re: Another charging issue...

Thanks for the responses.  I'll try to answer each of the follow-up questions.
50vert
- Alternator Light - No I have the stock guage.  My car was originally a sprint 200.  Guage is connected to power junction block under the hood, since solenoid is in the trunk.
- I did run the green / red from the alternator plug directly to the key Red / Green wire, bypassing the pink wire resister.  Assumed I needed full 12v like the modern coil does.  Does the Alternator need less than 12.3 volts to trigger charging?  Key on Engine off, I read 12.3v at the alternator connector for the Green / Red wire.
sal - Not sure by what you mean by check for drain by touching negative to ground.  When I do so w/ my voltmeter set to 20 dc, I show 0.  Resistance ohms also shows 0.
John - Your drawing is pretty much correct, though the connection at the fuse panel has both wires connecting, rather than a passthrough.  See linked drawing showing all my connections.  I don't have enough 4g wire to test a direct connection from power lug to solenoid, but I can buy some more and try it, possibly tomorrow.
MachTJ - I believe Mega fuse is good, since when car is off, I show 12.6 volts @ alternator, which has to pass through fuse to get to alternator.  Can the fuse be bad and still allow low amperage to get through?  When I checked voltage, it was at the power post, mega fuse, and alternator post.
Markin
- Belt Size - Well, I got a belt that fits best I can tell.  I had to try a few, before I found one small enough, since I'm not running A/C currently or smog.  I aligned the belt and tensioner the way I found on the internet.  See attached pic.
- Alternator pulley is the pulley that came on the '94 3G alternator.  Believe it is the same as the normal '88 mustang, howerever I didn't measure it.
- I do not have another alternator.
- Moving would be difficult, since starter wire is already run through the door channel and successfully hidden.
wsinsle - I ran a wire from trunk negative post to my volt meter, then touched the alternator case and showed 0v.  When I touch the high power lug on the alternator, it show 12.6, since the alternator is wired to the mega fuse which connects to the power lug.  I do not have a direct ground wire to the alternator.  I relied on the case. Is that a problem?

I labeled my drawing to show where I was checking the power in my original post.  A, B, C, D, E





 

     Thread Starter
 

3/09/2016 12:48 AM  #10


Re: Another charging issue...

It needs the resistance of either a warning light, or a 560 ohm resister, to excite the alt into charging. Completely different to the pink resistor wire.
I guess a 66 had a resistor between the key and the I terminal on the old regulator ... and you have now bypassed it so it doesn't excite.
My 65 uses a warning light. When I converted to a 5 gauge cluster I left a light hanging uder the dash.
When I did the efi/3g swap I got rid of the light and installed the resistor .... wouldn't charge without it.

Last edited by 50vert (3/09/2016 1:41 AM)


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

3/09/2016 2:04 PM  #11


Re: Another charging issue...

Good to know that it needs a resistor.  Clearly I missed that in all the reading I did planning this setup. I'll try to locate one and wire it in to see if it makes a difference.

     Thread Starter
 

3/09/2016 6:23 PM  #12


Re: Another charging issue...

belt size should be 84.5 inches without ac and without smog

I do remember having to grind off metal on the bracket to make the alternator sit right.

I also remember having to use the larger pulley.  You don't have underdrive pullies on there now?

shouldn't the belt tensior be mounted in those holes in the bracket to the right of the alternator???? why is yours down to the right?

http://www.corral.net/tech/maintenance/130a-tech.html

Last edited by MarkinSC (3/09/2016 6:29 PM)


GET HER DONE BULLETBOB!!! ..
 

3/09/2016 6:41 PM  #13


Re: Another charging issue...

I really don't think the resister is necessary, it's just there to keep the path if the light bulb burns out (if you use a bulb). I don't remember using one on mine, but I guess it's still worth a try. Some other things I would try, check the connection on the white/black wire to the stator is good and tight. Check the voltage output of the alternator form the out put terminal to the case of the alternator. One last thing, disconnect the battery after starting, then check the output voltage. (Not with EFI) In your case with EFI, I would probably try another battery.


If this forum can't fix it, it isn't broke.
 

3/09/2016 8:04 PM  #14


Re: Another charging issue...

I agree w/wsinsle, I do not believe the resistor is needed, I didn't use one on my setup.  Going back to some basics that I do not see in the posts, the charging voltage should like 13.6 to 14.2 volts.  The 12.6v you indicate is normal with the engine not running.  If the alternator indicated good at O'Reilly, based on the running voltages you indicate it is not charging at all. 
From the dwgs I have of both the 2G & 3G alternators, your sketch does not indicate a jumper wire on the alternator from the 'S' terminal on the Regulator portion of the alternator and the 'S' terminal of the Rectifier portion of the alternator.
Send me a PM w/your email address and I'll send it to you.
Better yet out this link ... [url]http://sbftech.com/index.php/topic,37486.0.html[/url] 
Scroll down, there is a picture of the wire (Wh/Bk) I mentioned.
PS - not sure why, but you'll need to go to the link and add the extension '37486.0.html'

Last edited by BobE (3/09/2016 8:29 PM)


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

3/09/2016 9:56 PM  #15


Re: Another charging issue...

Alternator is definitely not putting out any power at all.  Checking voltage on the charge post is the exact same voltage as checking at the mega fuse or power lug.
Stator is connected to the White / black wire.  It is on the drawing, though it is kinda small.
Unfortunately, resister did nothing for me.  Basically it dropped the voltage almost an immeasurable amount of .01.
Pulley's are probably my issue.  These were the pulleys on the donor, so I didn't investigate them any further.  Crank pulley appears to be underdrive, because it is 4.5".  Stock is 6" I believe.  Alternator pulley is 2.75" and is the one that came on the 3G.  WP is amount 5 3/8.

Currently I don't have smog, PS, or A/C, though I intend to add A/C, so I stuck with a CCW water pump and when I looked into getting a dummy pulley, I could have sworn I saw my current belt layout, though I can't seem to locate it now.
Maybe I just need to get a dummy pulley for the A/C and either a bigger crank pulley or smaller alternator pulley so the ratio is correct.
I do not have a ground wire on the case of the Alternator. If I check voltage by touching the Alt case with my black probe, it shows the same as everywhere else.  Does it need a ground wire or does grounding through the mount and engine block suffice?

     Thread Starter
 

3/09/2016 10:37 PM  #16


Re: Another charging issue...

Your wiring is setup basically the same as mine with a 3G and I don't have any issues.

I was having charging issues before when I had a serpentine tensioner system. Lots of squeeling too.   Ended up going with a fixed idler from March.

http://www.midnightdsigns.com/james/images/serpentine/019.JPG

 

 

3/10/2016 7:01 AM  #17


Re: Another charging issue...

soonerfan wrote:

Alternator is definitely not putting out any power at all.  Checking voltage on the charge post is the exact same voltage as checking at the mega fuse or power lug.
Stator is connected to the White / black wire.  It is on the drawing, though it is kinda small.
Unfortunately, resister did nothing for me.  Basically it dropped the voltage almost an immeasurable amount of .01.
Pulley's are probably my issue.  These were the pulleys on the donor, so I didn't investigate them any further.  Crank pulley appears to be underdrive, because it is 4.5".  Stock is 6" I believe.  Alternator pulley is 2.75" and is the one that came on the 3G.  WP is amount 5 3/8.

Currently I don't have smog, PS, or A/C, though I intend to add A/C, so I stuck with a CCW water pump and when I looked into getting a dummy pulley, I could have sworn I saw my current belt layout, though I can't seem to locate it now.
Maybe I just need to get a dummy pulley for the A/C and either a bigger crank pulley or smaller alternator pulley so the ratio is correct.
I do not have a ground wire on the case of the Alternator. If I check voltage by touching the Alt case with my black probe, it shows the same as everywhere else.  Does it need a ground wire or does grounding through the mount and engine block suffice?

I would start by getting the correct stock size crank pulley. If your current pullies are a set of underdrive pullies, its possible that the wp pulley is actually larger than stock.  So you might want to get a stock wp pulley as well. The tensioner should be next to the alternator where those holes are.  You need to grind away about a triangle worth of metal to get alternator to fit right on that bracket once the tensioner is in the proper place. And get the proper length belt.  A belt that's too long won't let the tensioner tighten up enough. I don't think there is any need for a ac dummy pulley. The stock altenator was not good at charging at idle, add to it an underdrive pulley, and you really won't get any output from it.


GET HER DONE BULLETBOB!!! ..
 

3/10/2016 9:16 AM  #18


Re: Another charging issue...

One other suggestion if you haven't already done, pull off to 3 prong connector from the alternator. Check the resistance of the wires. Measure from the yellow wire on the plug to the mega fuse. Check resistance from plug to plug on the black/white wire. Turn the key on and see if you have 12 volts on the green/red wire at the plug. Have someone wiggle the wires around while doing this, you may have a bad connection.


If this forum can't fix it, it isn't broke.
 

3/10/2016 7:34 PM  #19


Re: Another charging issue...

I do not think you have a pulley miss-match issue, but try brining the engine RPM up to 3000, or so, and check the voltages.  If you're still not getting charging voltage, it is not the pulleys (unless it is not spinning at all).
I agree w/winsle, check all the wiring connections on the alternator for resistance.  You can also try using a straightened paperclip to get into the alternator connections to check voltages, but be careful not to ground the clip.
Although I do not think it matters, verify the alternator rotation is the same as tested at O'Reily's. 


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

3/10/2016 11:27 PM  #20


Re: Another charging issue...

Well I didn't get a chance to try anything tonight, other than to try using insulated alligator clips instead of the 3 prong plug.  No help
Three prong plug has zero resitance to the mega fuse on the yellow when I stick my probe into the plug.  Green wire has the same voltage as every other place I check when the key is on.  It has 0v w/ key off.
White black connecting to stator has zero resistance as well.  I used a female spade connector and it seems pretty solid on the stator, so I don't believe it's a bad connection.

I''ve tried revving the engine with no change, however I haven't revved and held it, so I should be able to try that tomorrow night.  I'm not optimistic, since the battery goes down when the car is driven and the engine cuts out some.  I don't really know what to try next, because revving the engine should test the pulley size theory without actually purchasing a new one, because I see the alternator turning.
 

     Thread Starter
 

3/11/2016 9:43 AM  #21


Re: Another charging issue...

All I can say is if younz was a steeler fan, you wouldn't have issues. I'm running out of ideas of things to check. I still feel there is a small possibility of battery issue. Seen them do strange things, my be worth swapping with another. Another thing you could try is disconnect the main wire from the alt to the mega fuse and measure voltage at the back of the alternator with the car running. It the voltage is up over 13 volts, maybe the alternator can not produce output under load. Did the place that tested the alt just check for output voltage or do they check the alt. under load. With everything else checking out, it is really looking like a bad alternator.


If this forum can't fix it, it isn't broke.
 

3/12/2016 12:02 PM  #22


Re: Another charging issue...

I agree winsle test w/the megafuse removed.  I did notice that in your sketch you have the yellow wire connected to the output side of the fuse, the factory dwgs I have indicate the yellow wire connected to the alternator side of the fuse.  With a good fuse, this doesn't matter.  If you perform the test as winsle suggests you should relocate the yellow wire.
I also suggest returning the alternator to O'Reilly's and have it checked again as winsle recommends.


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

3/13/2016 7:55 AM  #23


Re: Another charging issue...

Figured out the issue.  Turned out to be a pulley / serpentine belt problem.
Since O'Reilly had told me the alt was good, I decided to spin it on my own w/ my air wrench to see if I got power.  In doing so, I noticed that I was getting about .15 extra volts, which was nice to see.  I hooked it all back up and noticed I was not getting .15, but was getting about .05 volts, so I decided it must be a belt or underdrive crank pulley issue since I didn't have a traditional belt configuration.
I bought an idler pulley and mounted it on the AC delete bracket, then reinstalled the bracket and like magic I have 14.6v now.
Thanks for the suggestions guys.
 

     Thread Starter
 

3/13/2016 2:05 PM  #24


Re: Another charging issue...

Bet it sure feels good when you get it working.


If this forum can't fix it, it isn't broke.
 

3/13/2016 5:59 PM  #25


Re: Another charging issue...

Funny how people think they can spin the alternator for free...like with elect. fans.  This pretty much prove that there ain't no free lunches.

BB


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

Board footera


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