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4/06/2016 10:56 AM  #1


BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Hi All some may remember me with all my brake issues over the past 11yrs but for those who dont I will do a Coles Notes recap.  I am baffled and not an engineer ergo help is required.

My name is Jeff and I own a 69 Fastback.  I have a decently modified (not stroked) 351W paired with a T5 Super Duty and 3.73.  When I purchased this car it had 4 Wheel Drum and 2yrs after I purchased it, the thing all over the internet to do which was affordable, was to convert to Granada Spindles/Disc.   Therefor I did. 
Now literally everything in the braking system aside from ALL NEW LINES throughout the car, is new or been replaced.  that being said, from the Day I did the Granada Conversion my brakes have never felt or been right or well. 
what does that mean?

Specifically SOFT PEDAL FEEL which then Led to sudden strong braking.  Also experienced massive brake fade, but that came later.

So as of 70min ago my most recent upgrade/project was converting the Calipers to 99-04 PBR Calipers.  I had the GTNADA adapter brackets and spacer made by a machine shop and everything is Bolted and Functioning?  Hurray Right?  Thing is the Pedal Feels Exactly the same, Soft....only difference is Soft but consistent.  No Sudden Strong braking, just as you depress it remains soft, but stops stronger.  Weird, I always remember the pedal on all other vehicles to slightly change in Resistance as the pedal pressure increases.

New Parts:
-Bendix rebult OEM booster
-NEW 1969 OR 75-80 Granada MC.  "Or" is because I cant remember which I currently have.  When I did the swap I had one or the other, then switched cause the pedal was as it is now.  Changing that did nothing. this means Ive been through 2 NEW MC's with No Change.
-New Flex Lines again that match the PBR's
-Rear Drum Were rebuilt the year I bought the car
-Adjustable proportioning valve going to the Rear

I will Upload Photos of the Setup.  I have Bled the Brakes anywhere from 20-30's MIN........Does anyone have some Insight on what would be causing the SOFT Pedal Feel.  by soft I mean it would feel as if there is air in the line, it just doesnt give the resistance or feel like any other car Ive Driven.

 

 

4/06/2016 11:30 AM  #2


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Sounds to me like you have air in the line.  Specifically, the master cylinder.  Bleeding one can be very frustrating, and most on this site have had the same problem.  It took me a couple of months to get mine air-free. 

Everyone has his/her own way of bleeding.  I started by bench bleeding the MC.  Then the rest of the system using the gravity method (fill the mc leaving the top off, then opening each brake bleeder screw till the air bubbles are gone.) doing it several times to make sure.

Have a good time at it:-).  We all feel for you.


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

4/06/2016 11:32 AM  #3


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Any chance your new booster is junk? If not that I would go to each caliper to be sure the bleeder is at the top so no air is trapped...if so change it and bleed it again.


65 mustang coupe, 351W, C6-  2800 stall, B&M blower, 9inch- trac-loc 3.70 gears
 

4/06/2016 1:08 PM  #4


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

M1M, I understand the frustration, and echo lowercasesteve's comments about trouble getting a system air free.  I have manual brakes on my 65, and replaced m/c, lines, hoses, calipers, rear cylinders, and combi prop valve last summer.  I worked on trying to get it bled to get a firm pedal for almost 2 weeks, and was tempted to drive it off a cliff, on more than one occasion.  I eventually caved, and took it to my mechanic for my daily drivers, and he put his pressure bleeder on it, and fixed it.  Hornman put his plans for making your own pressure bleeder in the "tips & how to" section of the forums. I have no experience with Mustang boosters.

 

4/06/2016 1:16 PM  #5


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

WoW thanks TIMC and LOWERCASE......I sincerely appreciate your excellent feedback, and its also reassuring to know that others have had this issue also...

I will attempt the Gravity Bleed tonight, letting it sit all night, if that fails I will bring it to a mechanic shop tomorrow TIM to have them pressure bleed....I dont know what that is but it sounds fancy and promising!  And seeing as it worked for you I'm Definitely down for it! 


Anyone Else have some insight/experience?

     Thread Starter
 

4/06/2016 1:27 PM  #6


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

I bench bleed a master by using two short lengths of tuning I made up to basically loop up from the ports and into the reservoir.  I use whatever adapter I need to make those lines fit the particular master I'm bleeding.  Then you take a Philips head screwdriver and use it to move the master cylinder piston inward and allow it to spring back outward.  You do that until your arms feel like they are going to fall off.  Then continue to do it until there are no air bubbles coming out of the tubes.  It can take a long time, and the issue I'll bet you are having is that the fluid got aerated and it seemed like no air was coming out, so you figured you were good to go.

Once the master is bench bled, install it and bleed the brakes.  I use a length of clear 3/16" vinyl tubing from the bleeder nipple to a clear container (water bottle, Gatorade jug, etc.) which I put enough clean brake fluid in to cover the end of the tubing.  Then pump about 20-30 times and check the line and container.  This allows you to literally see the air coming out and the condition of the fluid.  I go until I get nice clean, air free fluid, then move to the next closest wheel to the MC.  This method has always worked, where others have failed.  I always get a nice firm pedal this way, even on vehicles that are notoriously difficult to bleed. 

Finally, I'm sure you already know this, but make sure the bleeder screws on the calipers are on top.  The bleeders have to be at the high point or they don't work. 

 

4/06/2016 1:28 PM  #7


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

M1Mustang69 wrote:

WoW thanks TIMC and LOWERCASE......I sincerely appreciate your excellent feedback, and its also reassuring to know that others have had this issue also...

I will attempt the Gravity Bleed tonight, letting it sit all night, if that fails I will bring it to a mechanic shop tomorrow TIM to have them pressure bleed....I dont know what that is but it sounds fancy and promising!  And seeing as it worked for you I'm Definitely down for it! 


Anyone Else have some insight/experience?

I want to say NO!  You don't leave it out all night.  You'll end up with no fluid in the system and all the brake fluid in your catchment container.

 Gravity Bleeding is time intense.  each wheel needs 5-10 minutes to run the air out.  Then close the bleeder screw.  Then top off the mc.  You must watch it constantly to insure the mc does not ever empty.  After all 4 wheels are done, check the pedal.  If pedal still soft, repeat the above until the pedal is hard.  It can take several iterations to make it right.  Those little air bubbles can be hard to remove.


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

4/06/2016 1:32 PM  #8


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Ohhhhh Gotchya....I see Lowercase, I assumed the the bubbles would surface but not the fluid.....

One question though, will this help remove the potential air in the MC also?  or just the rest of the system....

Thank you TKO, If these fail I will be starting over and doing exactly as you had said (mind you when I bleed I do the hose to bottle thing also, I prefer that over all other methods)

     Thread Starter
 

4/06/2016 1:39 PM  #9


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

If you didn't Bench Bleed the MC, start Over with that and then continue on from there. Had a system that the MC was not Bench Bled and same type of issues for weeks. Bench Bled the MC, then the Calipers and ALL Good after that... YMMV


"The OLDER I Get....The FASTER I Was..."
 

4/06/2016 2:00 PM  #10


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

I know at one time somebody mentioned that you can put the calipers on upside down where the bleeder screws were on the bottom.  The air trapped stays at the top of the caliper.  This was on Granada calipers but it is worth a check.

 

4/06/2016 4:06 PM  #11


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Did you replace the drum/drum distribution block when you put the discs in front?  Is the switch on the distribution block functioning so that you are able to see the brake warning light?  There may be a chance that the spindle/spool in the distribution block is offset and thereby restricting flow to the front brakes.  These system often to not totally eliminate flow to the front or rear circuit but restrict flow.  In many cases, they seem to be biased to block off the rears but I just had one on my Truck that was stuck and the previous owner solved the problem by cutting the wire to the warning light.  Have you replaced the flex line to the rear axle?  They may allow low pressure flow for bleeding but under braking they can limit flow/pressure.

If you re-plumbed the master, make sure you don't have any lines above the level of the master (loops, for example) as any air trapped in these section often will not bleed out.  If you can take a picture of your M/C plumbing showing the distribution block it may help.  Also, ensure that you know that the rear proportioning valve (that you may not need) is not closed rather than open.  

 

4/06/2016 6:56 PM  #12


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Alright MachRon and GPat. thank you both also!

-Pat I eliminated the factory Prop.Valve several years back in an attempt to rectify this very issue; this is when I put the Adjustable Prob. Valve in.

-MachRon I know this is going to sound Very Stupid but to remove the MC now is going to be a decent size SOB...I have the Borgeson Steering box with Power Lines running in the way, the front suspension connectors that runs from end to end, CLutch Lines....I mean Obviously I will, but if the PRESSURE BlEEDING can do the entire system, I'd prefer to avoid removing the MC.

UPDATE :
-See if this makes sense and if Im on any sort of Track Here;

When the Pedal is depressed with the car off (bleeding), the first 1" (possibly more) is all booster travel.  Next you can here a slight "click" which Im assuming is the booster pin hitting the MC cylinder.  Im determining this while watching the MC bowels blimp or wave the fluid within it.
Am I wrong to think the Booster Pin is to far in? should it not engage sooner?
 

     Thread Starter
 

4/06/2016 7:07 PM  #13


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

This is a somewhat common problem which will allow you to pull the M/C - which is what you didn't want to do...  Actually, if you have enough room to slide it forward you may be able to adjust the actuator pin/rod if it is indeed adjustable.  Rather than re-hash - try this link  http://fyi.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=3079

 

4/06/2016 9:04 PM  #14


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

I use same bleed method as TKO.  Works every time.
You can bench bleed a mc on the car. Just disconnect the lines from it and install some temporary lines from the ports to the bowls, below fluid level.  Use pedal instead of screwdriver to accomplish the same thing. When you get no more bubbles bend the temp lines to vertical above fluid level. Install the lid. That creates a vacuum to keep fluid from escaping as you reinstall the brake lines.

Then bleed as TKO described.

Also, you need to be sure the rear brakes are adjusted as tight as practical and that the self-adjusters are in good working order. If the rear brakes have too much travel, you can get symptoms where you press on the pedal and not much happens until the front brakes get full pressure and then whamo, you get full brake actuation all of a sudden when all four hit at once.

Rotor runout or loose bearings can also cause excessive brake travel.

Using a power booster with a manual brake pedal can cause a mushy brake pedal and sudden high pressure brake actuation.

A defective internal booster valve can cause sudden brake actuation after excessive pedal travel.

Brake lines running higher than the fluid level of the mc will trap air. Ditto with hard lines that have upward runs.  You want them flowing downhill as much as possible to avoid air entrapment.

My first efforts would be spent bench bleeding the mc, adjusting the rear brakes, then bleeding the system.

If you immediately go out and try a panic stop to try out your new brakes, chances are high you destroyed the pads. You must break them in gently with progressively hotter stops over many miles. If this describes your test method, replace thr pads. My experience has been that any pads with a lifetime warranty will not stop as well as cheaper or a peformance type pad.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

4/07/2016 2:43 PM  #15


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

UPDAAATEE!!

Sooooo Good News, first time in 7-8yrs that my brakes are about 75-80% normal; by normal meaning how all other vehicles feel....Still mildly soft but Im going to book an appointment to have them pressure Bled.

I did as everyone suggested.  Removed the MC and bench bled it AGAIN....Then Adjusted the Booster Push Rod (it was DEF 1/4 or more off (too short).....

I re-assembled and did the bleeding sequence....Et Vola.....I will not l lie I was doubtful given Ive been through this several times already, but it did work....So thank you ALL very Much


One last QUESTION though.....THis has always baffled me also since I did the Granada Swap (power pedals also).
i hope I can describe this well:
  -While Bleeding I noticed that the Fronts acted differently than the rears.  So to start let me say that the Pedal travel doesnt seem normal!  I will make up numbers to help describe this.  If 10" is normal travel for Max Pressure I feel as if the Pedal only travels approx 6" then hits a Very Hard and dead stop.  As if Mechanically it is no longer capable of traveling more.
BUT
while bleeding the REARS, and only the rears, the Pedal traveled the Entire 10" (100%).  which is hitting the floor.  I dont Understand this!!!!  Can anyone esplain why the Pedal flows correctly only when the Rear Bleeders are Open!

     Thread Starter
 

4/07/2016 3:08 PM  #16


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

I pretty much have the same setup as you on my 69.  I have the power Brakes with the Granda's brakes on the front.  I bought all my parts this winter from MustangSteve and it works really well now.  I bought the booster and pedal setup and had the roller bearing installed in the pedal support.  Id bet your pedal is part of the problem too.  You should have  power brake pedal for a Mustang.  
Steve69 

 

4/07/2016 3:37 PM  #17


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

I do have a Power Pedal.  At least as far as I know.  I purchased it complete with a bracket removed from a spare car. 

What's the most obvious indication with it installed to verify

     Thread Starter
 

4/07/2016 7:18 PM  #18


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Thanks RED351.....you sound like youre on to something!.....but how do I correct the Rear Brakes from expanding prematurely, or, "braking that strongly before the fronts are activated?"

-are my shoes too far out? (there is no Drag on the rear, front yes)
-is it possible the Rear Cylinders are Seized?
-are they not getting enough fliud, or too much?
-are the shoes on incorrectly? (left and rights mixed up)

It has been 10yrs since I serviced the Rear Drums so I can not Recall what size they are, but Im assuming OEM Stock 69 Mustang; 9";  28 spline Drum Brakes

     Thread Starter
 

4/07/2016 7:44 PM  #19


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Jeff, you said you have an adjustable prop valve going to the rear...
elaborate more on this valve.  is it an aftermarket valve with the knob that you screw in and out?   ever contemplate getting the combination valve that goes to the front and the rear?

do you have any pics of this setup?


GET HER DONE BULLETBOB!!! ..
 

4/07/2016 8:20 PM  #20


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Hey Markin,

Yes it is am Adjustable Prop. Valve with the Knob on top....Plumbed out of the Rear Bowel of the MC straight to the Rear Line....

Most Current Update:
-I did my Third Run today (lightly driving to break in Pads) and this last time I stopped and turned the Valve all the up (I believe up cause it seemed to get easier to turn).  The Pedal Felt firmer to press, although breaking the vehicle seemed more difficult.  But that last point doesnt have much to compare to so I will have more info tomorrow. 
Def noticed a firmer pedal though......

unfortunately achieving a photo is nearely impossible...the area is too tight and full of lines, wires and crapolla

     Thread Starter
 

4/07/2016 8:32 PM  #21


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

umm... isn't the rear bowl bigger and for the front brakes?

M1Mustang69 wrote:

Hey Markin,

Yes it is am Adjustable Prop. Valve with the Knob on top....Plumbed out of the Rear Bowel of the MC straight to the Rear Line....

Most Current Update:
-I did my Third Run today (lightly driving to break in Pads) and this last time I stopped and turned the Valve all the up (I believe up cause it seemed to get easier to turn).  The Pedal Felt firmer to press, although breaking the vehicle seemed more difficult.  But that last point doesnt have much to compare to so I will have more info tomorrow. 
Def noticed a firmer pedal though......

unfortunately achieving a photo is nearely impossible...the area is too tight and full of lines, wires and crapolla

 


GET HER DONE BULLETBOB!!! ..
 

4/08/2016 8:05 AM  #22


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

Patience and a BFH are your best friends when working on seized up brakes. An old timer (now I am one) showed me how to get things apart on my old Fiat once. First loosen the spindle nut so you have slop in the bearings then use hard wood block and hammer on front and back of the drum to get the frozen shoes to retract. I've had it work on the back too, but takes a lot more of the patience. I was able to save an unobtainium brake drum that way.

 

4/08/2016 3:03 PM  #23


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

So ita confirmed, my Front Brakes are connected to the Port closest to the Rad and the Rear brakes are connected to the Port closest to the firewall.   

This is Incorrect yes?   

Mine has second Port Larger than first one and second bowel is smaller!

     Thread Starter
 

4/08/2016 4:48 PM  #24


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

typically, the larger bowl is for the disc brakes in the front, and the smaller bowl is for the drum brakes in the rear.
Sounds like we found your problem..

M1Mustang69 wrote:

So ita confirmed, my Front Brakes are connected to the Port closest to the Rad and the Rear brakes are connected to the Port closest to the firewall.

This is Incorrect yes?

Mine has second Port Larger than first one and second bowel is smaller!

 


GET HER DONE BULLETBOB!!! ..
 

4/08/2016 6:01 PM  #25


Re: BRAKES !! Done it all nothing is rectifying Dont know what else to do!

You have it plumbed backwards.
And the discussion about bleeders on calipers being on top is only partially correct. The point at which the bleeder INTERSECTS the caliper piston bore must be on top.  With 68-73 Mustang or Granada calipers, that puts the bleeders on top but pointing towards the rear of the car, not straight up.

Get your hwrd lines corrected. If you do not KNOW your rear wheel cylinders are good, replace them. They are very inexpensive. If your rear drums are oversized, you will have excessive travel.

The 67 I am installing discs up front is having same issue as you. New Bendix booster with correct pedal, new 1" disc drum master cylinder, new proportioning valve, all new front discs, but older rear drums.
The pedal is low and appears to hit a positive stop. That is indicative if the booster or master cylinder bottoming out.  On this car, I will install new drums and shoes and wheel cylinders to get everything having less travel.  The customer said the rear brakes had recently been checked but inspection shows worn adjusters and drums.

I am not a proponent of adding residual pressure valves, but as a last resort they can be used to help reduce pedal travel if the fluid is being pulled back towards the mc for some reason.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

Board footera


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