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I hate to be a killjoy in all this, but if its stuck that hard I wouldn't bother priming the oiling system. Get it broken loose because it will be easier to tear down. That engine has to come out and be rebuilt. Stuck like that the rings have rust welded themselves to the cylinder walls, which means, even if you get it loose there will be rings of corrosion in the cylinders and the integrity of the rings is questionable. Right now you may be able to get by with a 0.020" overbore to clean them up. Get it running and break a ring and its either sleeve time or a junked block.
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Spray the $hiT out of it with WD 40...the one with the flexee that doesn't come off...remove the starter maybe its stuck....good luck....jj
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Since it needs to be rebuilt anyway you could just pull it as is and do this: take the heads off on an engine stand, put one bank of cylinders vertical, clean all the oil, etc. from the cylinders and fill them with Coke. Let it sit overnight. Roll the other bank vertical and repeat. WD40 the heck out of all the cylinders and try to spin it. I'll bet it spins right over. The phosphoric acid in the Coke will eat the rust right out of the cylinders. I used this trick on a seized Chevy big block boat engine that had been underwater for a week. Worked like a charm.
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When you remove the dizzy, you can see the Allen type slot where the tip of the dizzy falls into. Find a socket that fits the slot on the dizzy, then get a long extension to put the socket into the distributor hole. The socket should fit around the Allen oil pump shaft, then you get a drill bit w/ a 3/8 socket end to insert in your drill. As you squeeze the drill trigger the extension should turn the shaft in the eng. there by allowing your oil pump to start pumping oil throughout the engine. This will help get oil to all the other parts of the engine.
I hope I'm making sense? But if your having that tough of a time turning the crank, I agree W/ TKO.
Last edited by Ozblitz (8/16/2016 10:05 PM)
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Ozblitz wrote:
When you remove the dizzy, you can see the Allen type slot where the tip of the dizzy falls into. Find a socket that fits the slot on the dizzy, then get a long extension to put the socket into the distributor hole. The socket should fit around the Allen oil pump shaft, then you get a drill bit w/ a 3/8 socket end to insert in your drill. As you squeeze the drill trigger the extension should turn the shaft in the eng. there by allowing your oil pump to start pumping oil throughout the engine. This will help get oil to all the other parts of the engine.
I hope I'm making sense? But if your having that tough of a time turning the crank, I agree W/ TKO.
Thanks that makes sense. I'm thinking I'm going to pull the engine and disassemble it. Then have the machine shop check the block to see how much I can bore it out.
I'm looking to have a good solid street diven car with moderate torq and hp. I thought my car had some decent power. Any suggestions on how much I should bore it out? I'm also thinking I should get some heads for the engine as well. A buddy of mine has some gt40 heads. I realize those heads have some big ports on them. If I was to bore my engine. Would I be able to install the heads with out sacrificing some compression?
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This is the machine shop that I've Hurd awesome reviews about.
How long does it usually take to bore a block. They charge a 100 an hour. I was just curious how much I could expect to pay after the shop rate and the cost to have them do the work.Offline
Machine shops typically charge by the job for standard stuff like boring, etc. Hourly rates are usually reserved for unusual projects. I can't say what the going rates are in your area, but around here there is usually about a $150 charge for a block service (clean, check for cracks, replace all core & galley plugs, and hone), and then its like $25/hole to bore the block.
On the GT40 heads, the ports are only big by stock port standards. Those heads were installed on 5.0 engines mostly (302), and the 351 in the first gen Lightning (that engine had a tiny cam in it though, otherwise the heads would have been too small for a 351 with more RPM potential).
The GT40s are a bit of a mixed bag though. First, make sure they are GT40s and not GT40Ps. GT40s have three vertical ribs cast into the front of the head. GT40Ps have four. The P head is actually better performance wise, but header fitment can be more difficult, and likely whatever you have now is not going to work.
Second, as for compression, most of the GT40 heads check in right around 64ccs, which is going to yield about 9:1 compression on a standard bore 302. Boring the engine will increase the compression ratio, because the swept area increases in volume, but its minor, maybe 0.10, so from 9:1 to 9.1:1 with a 0.030" overbore. You can adjust the compression several ways (head gasket thickness, decking the block or heads, piston dish or dome volume), but I like to set the squish distance at 0.040" and then make changes to chamber or piston volumes to get to where I want to be. In truth though it makes very little difference on a stock or mild performance build, but the engine builder in me just does things a certain way.
Third, the issue with the GT40P heads is that the stock springs won't take much cam, in fact a stock HO cam from a 5.0 is too much, and that cam is considered tiny. So to use the P heads for performance you need to change the springs. In theory the GT40 springs will take more lift, but the ones from stock vehicles (even the Cobras, Lighting, etc.) don't have very good springs. The Ford Racing GT40s had better springs in them, but there's probably no way to tell, so I would swap the springs as cheap insurance.
Now we start to get into the problem with the GT40 heads. How many miles are on them? You're already changing the springs, which means the valves are coming out, so you might as well get a valvejob. If you're going to spend penny one on them you need to make sure they aren't cracked or warped. Now you're getting them hot tanked, Magnafluxed, a valve job, new springs (might as well install new locks, keepers, and seals too), and those cheap or even free heads are starting to get kind of expensive. Once you get close to the $1,000 mark in them you are in entry level aluminum head territory, and you can almost certainly find a set of used aluminum heads on Craigslist for less. The big difference there is that aftermarket heads flow better and make more power, plus they are lighter and will tolerate about a full point more compression without detonation (10:1 vs. 9:1 for iron). The GT40s were a good stock head, but they were still a stock head, designed with emissions requirements in mind as well as cost. Ultimately you have to make the call, but I live by the adage that the wrong part at the right price is still the wrong part. Your first order of business is to lay out your goals for the engine and then you need to see what's going to fit that goal, as well as budget. Give me some guidelines and I'll gladly help get you there.
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Listen to TKO, to get a set of GT40 heads to work good is a lot of work. I have a set on my motor in my 65FB right now but they were on a race motor in previous life only because rules required stock head castings. Everything on them was machined and massaged then flow checked then done again.Valves were upgraded, new springs, retainers, keepers..... Machined for new rocker studs, spring pockets machined, hard pushrod guides, pushrod holes opened up for pushrod clearance and oil drainback. I know there are a couple more paragraphs of stuff we did to get these heads to work not quite as good as most aftermarket aluminum ones. And yes, they are HEAVY. If they were not laying on the bench when I put together the motor, I would have a set of AFR's on it.
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Awesome thanks guys for the help on everything so far.
When I go to have my engine bored if she checks out fine. Since the over bore Pistons are all the same price from going 20-60 over. I'm leaning to go either 40 or 60 over on my block. If I go 40 over then i will be able to bore the engine out later if I choose to go bigger when it's time for a rebuild which would be nice. But at the same time. Im sure I'll drive my car a lot in the summer. But that's about it besides the bash. So it won't really have a lot of action and miles. If I can should I just go 60 over?
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I would go with the minimum amount of overbore that you can get away with (hopefully .020) so the engine can be bored again one day if needed. The amount of cubic inch displacement you gain from a .020 to a .060 overbore is negligible as far as power is concerned and it limits your future options.... and a .060 overbore is more likely to cause overheating issues.
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Awesome thankyou. Should I get new rods for my engine, or should I stick with the stock rods? I've Hurd that a lot of people stick with the stock rods because, they can handle being in most performance engines.
Last edited by True74yamaha (8/19/2016 12:47 PM)
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Well, since it sounds like you are planning to rebuild the engine, I have to say....
For just a few bux more...$50 to $100...you can likely come up with a core 5.0 (302) roller engine complete. The cost of rebuilding that will be the same as the 289 but you will end up with a better block with better cam selection, more potential performance, and probably better cooling due to better core control on the later engines. All of the 289 front dress and accessory mounts will bolt on and only a very determined few will be able to tell that you have a late block.
Just makes no sense to me to pour a couple grand into a flat tappet engine these days unless you are doing some numbers-matching, stone stock, original restoration on a certified trailer queen.
BB
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Sounds to me like there is a lot of wild speculation as to what might be going on with little or no data to back it up. Either get the biggest wrench you can get and turn that puppy over and see if it will run or pull it, tear it down, and inspect it. Then you can figure out what you need to do. Maybe a set of bearings, a hone, and rings will be all that it needs to get you running for now. Unless it is a five bolt bellhousing block I fully agree with Bob. For likely less money you will end up with a better motor that you can slowly piece together while driving and enjoying a slightly compromised 289.
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GPatrick wrote:
Maybe a set of bearings, a hone, and rings will be all that it needs to get you running for now.
Kinda what I was thinking too...
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I know that sounds good, but every stuck engine I've ever dealt with had pitting in the bore that required boring to cut out. A typical hone job removes less than 0.005" of material, and that just doesn't clean up much in terms of pitting. I had a BBC that needed a 0.060" bore to clean up. The only course of action is to take it to the machine shop, tell them the deal, and let them bore it until its clean, then order your pistons. Go with the smallest overbore you can get away with.
Or, the advice about sourcing a used 5.0 is also very solid. Roller engines, especially with today's oils are a much better way to go. I haven't built a flat tappet engine in over 20 years. Roller cams make better torque, and for a street engine you want as much torque as possible in a smaller engine. One of the reasons the 5.0 was such a killer engine was the roller cam. You couple that to EFI and its torque city. Put a set of headers on it and its got even more toque. The 5.0 is legendary for a reason; it really was that good.
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Agree with the last few posts, pull the engine, take is apart to see what is wrong. If it is bad news, I'd go the route of getting a 5.0 roller motor, or my choice would be to go w/a 351W. Cost would be about the same as a 5.0 and power output would increase.
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Awsome guys thank you. I was talking to a machine shop about my engine and he said he could machine it and mill the deck etc for 275.00. I was thinking to good to be true. But then again that's with me supplying the Pistons rings seals bearing and any other parts. That price included pressing on the Pistons and balancing the assembly. He mentioned I should double check the block casting date code. He said if it was changed out over the years to a 68 block. That's the year he said ford used the the same block for making the 289 and the 302s. I did run into a car guy at work. So this next day I'll probably pull the starter double check my block. As well as get a bigger wrench and see if I can break my engine loose and go from there.
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My engine was given life again by the Ford Gods. I got out side today pulled my hammer out and a small 6x6. I've been giving my crank a few slight taps. Then adding more ATF/Acetone mix. Well it worked out for me in a good way. I went out today and hit the 6x6 a couple times and the crank moved perfect with no hesitation. After getting the movement back. I pulled off my homemade wrench. I then followed threw with a socket and ratchet on the balancer bolt. My crank moved flawlessly with out any hesitations I didn't feel any catching either. So now what I'm planning on doing. I'm thinking I should pull the pan and have a look see. Then clean the pan out if needed as I'm not sure if that ATF Mix broke a bunch of junk loose. The last thing I want is to have stuff go threw the engine yuck. Then I'm going to clean then install a new pan and gasket. Should I bother changing out my oil pump pickup at the same time? I figure I might as well while I'm in there right. Is there anything else I should do beside the obvious looking to see what all is in the pan.
Last edited by True74yamaha (8/20/2016 12:20 PM)
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Congrats!! See what eating a can of spinach will do........
Not sure how much stuff you put in the cylinders but, just drain the existing oil, change the filter, spin the dizzy as earlier suggested to prime everything up then, button the engine ;up and hit the winding stem..........let it run, start to smile and enjoy it all......
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I'm telling you, starting it now is a bad idea. The only way I'd even consider it would be if I could borescope the cylinders and make sure there's no rust rings in them, which I basically guarantee there are. The ring seal is now compromised. I would still pull it, machine it, etc. Its just not worth the risk, especially if its the original engine, or even a period correct engine as they are getting harder and harder to find.
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(WOW!...I can't believe I'm doing this!)
TKO...I gotta disagree this time. I believe I would flush it...change the oil filter...and take my chances.
The way it is now......some think "tear it down and re-build."
Some think "get another engine(crate motor)"
Some think "get a newer roller block".
Well............let's do..." something"... and see where it leads.
The way it stands now.....If it runs.......... fine! If it stops running THEN go to any of the above options.
Doubtful it will just "lock-up". At the worse it will just become an anti-Zeka machine.
I say "fire-that-B--ch-up" and see what happens!
6s6....IMHO
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Ya, sitting only two years I'd give it try also.
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I'm confident it will run; that's not my concern. Most any engine will run so long as its got some ring seal left.
For me, I don't run stuff that's marginal. At this point it needs to be freshened, mainly because I know how this stuff goes. Years ago Car craft had an editorial about temporary fixes that become permanent. Damn if that's not true. We tend to suffer with stuff that's half-@$$ because it still works. So what I learned over the years is if you want it right fix it now, otherwise it could be 20 years before you get around to it.
Years back I couldn't get the temp control cable to work in my car after I'd swapped to factory AC. So no heat because the default position for the door is closed. Well it was cold one day when I was going home. I figured if I could just hold the door full open I'd have heat. Having nothing to really work with I found a ZipLock bag in my lunch and ripped the lock part out of it and tied the heater door full open with it. That was in 1995 or 1996 and I finally fixed that last year. Just sayin'...
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Quick story. 1975 junior in high school. My day had a 65 Ford pickup 300 inch 6. It dropped a couple cylinders on vacation. Still drove home across the states on 4 cylinders. Power down mileage sucked but got us home trailer and all. Had engine rebuilt, power was worse than old engine. Senior in high school now, working in old garage for an old mech. Learned a lot from that guy. Behind the garage were several parts vehicles. I spotted a 69 Ford pickup that had been rolled, had a 300 in it, no hood and no air cleaner. Been setting there for 4 years only 30k on the truck. Got the engine for 300 bucks with a 90 day It will work warranty. It could not be worse than what dad had rebuilt. Pulled the engine from the wreck with a fork lift and laid it on the shop floor. Boss said pull the plugs and put some new ones in. Pulled the plugs like I was told and rusty water runs out of 2 off them. No hood or air cleaner for 4 years. Boss said put a cup of tranny fluid in the 2 with the rusty water. Did that, all the while thinking what did I get myself into! Swapped that sucker into dad's truck, change the fluids and fired it up. Smoked like pig for about 20 minutes. Dad put 70k on it, then I ended up with it and added another 30k. It ran better than the original. Just show's you never know. I would not have gave it 5k. Just sayin!!!
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TKOPerformance wrote:
That was in 1995 or 1996 and I finally fixed that last year. Just sayin'...
And it worked until you had time or cash to pull it apart and fix it right...right? I won't do 1/2 axed either if I can avoid it but X5 for what Mike says. If it will run and not puke loads of oil or smoke, and not hammer like a monkey with a 12lb sledge in an oil drum...I'd use it and start gathering parts for a new roller 5.0. Then one day down the road I'd do a week-end swap and be happy.
If it pukes, you're no worse off...you were planning to pull it apart anyway.
JMHOFO
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