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  •  » nuts and bolts

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    9/06/2016 2:34 PM  #1

    devovino
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    From: Bend Oregon
    Registered: 4/01/2014
    Posts: 266

    nuts and bolts

    Ordered an oil pan and not bolts, I have seen two different sizes mentioned for my roller block oil pan, how can I determine length needed?

     

    All men die, but not all men truly ever live.
     

    9/06/2016 3:19 PM  #2

    6sally6
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    From: Surfside Beach,SC
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    Get "something" and stick in the hole to figure out the length!
    I would use socket head bolts with a washer to spread the clamping force and....they look cool for the guy changing the oil!
    6s6
     

    Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
     

    9/06/2016 5:00 PM  #3

    devovino
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    From: Bend Oregon
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    6sally6 wrote:

    Get "something" and stick in the hole to figure out the length!
    I would use socket head bolts with a washer to spread the clamping force and....they look cool for the guy changing the oil!
    6s6
     

    Copy that, it seems so obvious now that you say that.... I took one of the pan bolts with a washer from the old 302 and threaded in there w/o the pan in place and could not get it to bottom out. For gasket, use the one from the kit with or with out rtv?

    Got the new intermediate drive in place, bolted in the new melling pump and p/u, wondering about torque numbers?

    Setting the pan in place it seems I need the timing cover in place first which brings up the question of which cover. Any reason I can't use a 65-70 timing chain cover with the pre drilled oil dipstick if I am going serpentine belt?

    All men die, but not all men truly ever live.
       •Thread Starter
     

    9/06/2016 9:16 PM  #4

    6sally6
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    From: Surfside Beach,SC
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    I took MS advice on a couple of pan installs and went with NO gasket.....just RTV. Like he sez."no leaks".
    Just clean it REAL well with acetone or carb cleaner or my favorite(I love this stuff!) Brakleen.
    6s6

    Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
     

    9/07/2016 7:25 AM  #5

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
    Registered: 12/15/2014
    Posts: 7,599

    Re: nuts and bolts

    5.0s often use oil pan rail reinforcements, which is why you've probably seen two lengths noted, one for with the reinforcements, and the other for without.  The reinforcements are strips of metal about 1/8" thick that install over the pan rails.  I think the idea is to improve clamp load on the gasket.

    RTV is an interesting idea for sealing an oil pan.  I might have to try that on one of my next builds.  It makes a lot of sense considering that a lot of engines are put together that way now. 

     

    9/07/2016 7:54 AM  #6

    DC
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    From: Marshall, MI
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    RTV is the way to go. Most pans get tweaked a little when they are removed and the aftermarket ones are worse for that. The RTV is a lot more forgiving than any gasket. Never had one leak with RTV

     

    9/07/2016 11:19 AM  #7

    TKOPerformance
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    I will say, I've switched to one-piece gaskets on all my builds in the past couple years and never had one of those leak either.  I do always add a dab of RTV at the corners though. 

     

    9/07/2016 12:45 PM  #8

    josh-kebob
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    From: Madison, AL
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    What torque specs do you need?

     

    9/07/2016 7:38 PM  #9

    BobE
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    From: White Plains, NY
    Registered: 4/04/2013
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    Torque specs from the 66 Mustang Service manual ...
    Oil Pan:
    1/4-20: 7-9 ft-lbs
    5/16-18: 9-11 ft-lbs
    Oil pump to Block: 23-28 ft-lbs
    Oil Tube to Pump: 12-15 ft-lbs

    I have to add that I don't believe I've ever used a torque wrench on these fasteners ... also, I use Locktite on the oil pump to block and the pump tube bolts, and never had any issues.

    65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
     

    9/07/2016 7:40 PM  #10

    DC
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    From: Marshall, MI
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    I replaced three one piece gaskets one year to try to stop a leak then bought the large tube of RTV and suddenly no more leaks! The bonus was that the large tube of RTV cost a lot less than one one piece gasket!!!

     

    9/08/2016 5:03 AM  #11

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    I think this is a Ford issue.  Thinking back, I've had Ford oil pans leak a fair amount, but never had a Chevy leak.  OF course the Chevys make up for it with valve cover leaks...

     

    9/08/2016 7:48 AM  #12

    devovino
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    From: Bend Oregon
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    Yeah TKO I bought a few 1/4 20 3/4 bolts to try and the bottomed out before hitting the washer,  so that makes sense, 1/2 in. length it is.

    I did a smart thing and found the copy of Tom Monroe how to build sbf, good info.

    Thanks for this torque numbers, I am going to go back and lock tite those bolts on the pump an p/u, good call!

    At this point,  seen so many differant timing chain covers its making my head spin...

    All men die, but not all men truly ever live.
       •Thread Starter
     

    9/15/2016 11:47 AM  #13

    devovino
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    From: Bend Oregon
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    Waiting on timing chain cover, water pump to arrive and trying tho decide what intake manifold/carb would be best suited. Heard good things about edlebrock, and thinking holly carb, possibly 600cfm, wondering what folks are running,  thanks.

    All men die, but not all men truly ever live.
       •Thread Starter
     

    9/15/2016 2:53 PM  #14

    jerseyjoe
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    Without lookin it up.... what does RTV stand for...jj

    "Never put a question mark where God put a period "  Richard Petty
     

    9/15/2016 3:33 PM  #15

    Rudi
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    From: Stuck in the 50's Welland Ca
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    jerseyjoe wrote:

    Without lookin it up.... what does RTV stand for...jj

    Room Temperature Vulcanising 

    Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
     

    9/15/2016 3:48 PM  #16

    devovino
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    From: Bend Oregon
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    Rudi wrote:

    jerseyjoe wrote:

    Without lookin it up.... what does RTV stand for...jj

    Room Temperature Vulcanising 

    Learn something new everyday. .... I just know that's WHAT I used when I sealed up my  8in after re-gearing!

    All men die, but not all men truly ever live.
       •Thread Starter
     

    9/15/2016 7:32 PM  #17

    jerseyjoe
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    And the winner is...... Rudi......

    "Never put a question mark where God put a period "  Richard Petty
     

    9/17/2016 7:31 PM  #18

    MS
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    From: Canyon Lake, Texas
    Registered: 1/24/2013
    Posts: 12,349

    Re: nuts and bolts

    On those torque settings...  They are posted for use on CORK GASKETS.

    If using RTV, tighten the bolts down tight and leave it alone until it dries.  Use a razor blade to trim off the DRY extra sealant that oozes out.  Put it together WET.  That is the whole point so it won't leak.  Get both the pan and the block 100% coated with a thin layer, then add a bead down the middle of the pan.

    Keep in mind you don't want to use it so thick that it oozes into the inside of the engine where it will eventually break off and get through the oil pump into a crankshaft oil passage.  If that happens, that rod bearing becomes instant toast.  And not the tasty kind.

    Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     

    9/18/2016 11:24 AM  #19

    devovino
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    From: Bend Oregon
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    MS wrote:

    On those torque settings...  They are posted for use on CORK GASKETS.

    If using RTV, tighten the bolts down tight and leave it alone until it dries.  Use a razor blade to trim off the DRY extra sealant that oozes out.  Put it together WET.  That is the whole point so it won't leak.  Get both the pan and the block 100% coated with a thin layer, then add a bead down the middle of the pan.

    Keep in mind you don't want to use it so thick that it oozes into the inside of the engine where it will eventually break off and get through the oil pump into a crankshaft oil passage.  If that happens, that rod bearing becomes instant toast.  And not the tasty kind.

    Copy that, makes perfect sense. What might not make sense and stop me if I am off base here, but I had considered using both the gasket (for crush strength) and a bead on both the pan and motor mating surface. I remember somebody recommended this for my rear end, as it also makes for easier cleanup/removal if I ever have to access in the future.

    All men die, but not all men truly ever live.
       •Thread Starter
     

    9/18/2016 3:26 PM  #20

    MS
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    From: Canyon Lake, Texas
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    On a rear end, it makes sense to have the gasket in place.  Without one, the differential sits one gasket thickness farther to the rear, and that can make the rear wheels toed in very slightly.

    On the oil pan, the whole point of using RTV is to eliminate the crush thickness.  Think about it.  Any material that needs to be crushed to function will deteriorate over time and lose that crush.  A gasket that has to be squished hard to function spends the rest of its life trying to squish out the sides or otherwise fail.  That is why pan bolts loosen up on their own.  With RTV only, you can torque the bolts tight just like holding two metal parts together, so they will never loosen up.  Why waste money on a gasket when the RTV will do a better job?

    I doubt you will find a pan gasket on any late model car.

    Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     

    9/18/2016 7:07 PM  #21

    DC
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    From: Marshall, MI
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    Great explanation MS!

     

    9/18/2016 10:47 PM  #22

    devovino
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    From: Bend Oregon
    Registered: 4/01/2014
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    Re: nuts and bolts

    MS wrote:

    On a rear end, it makes sense to have the gasket in place.  Without one, the differential sits one gasket thickness farther to the rear, and that can make the rear wheels toed in very slightly.

    On the oil pan, the whole point of using RTV is to eliminate the crush thickness.  Think about it.  Any material that needs to be crushed to function will deteriorate over time and lose that crush.  A gasket that has to be squished hard to function spends the rest of its life trying to squish out the sides or otherwise fail.  That is why pan bolts loosen up on their own.  With RTV only, you can torque the bolts tight just like holding two metal parts together, so they will never loosen up.  Why waste money on a gasket when the RTV will do a better job?

    I doubt you will find a pan gasket on any late model car.

    Yeah, good explanation as it makes perfect sense. I just have a gasket here for the pan already because it came with the master gasket kit that the engine builder must have ordered at some point from felpro. I also agree and it makes sense I guess I was trying to apply the same thinking as the rear for the pan.
     

    All men die, but not all men truly ever live.
       •Thread Starter
     

    9/19/2016 6:42 AM  #23

    Frankie3555
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    Registered: 3/20/2016
    Posts: 17

    Re: nuts and bolts

    devovino wrote:

    6sally6 wrote:

    Get "something" and stick in the hole to figure out the length!
    I would use socket head bolts with a washer to spread the clamping force and....they look cool for the guy changing the oil!
    6s6
     

    Copy that, it seems so obvious now that you say that.... I took one of the pan bolts with a washer from the old 302 and threaded in there w/o the pan in place and could not get it to bottom out. For gasket, use the one from the kit with or with out rtv?

    Got the new intermediate drive in place, bolted in the new melling pump and p/u, wondering about torque numbers?

    Setting the pan in place it seems I need the timing cover in place first which brings up the question of which cover. Any reason I can't use a 65-70 timing chain cover with the pre drilled oil dipstick if I am going serpentine belt?

    Depends on which serpentine system you are going to use, aftermarket..yes, early 86-93 gt...yes, 94-95 gt, T-bird, Lincoln..no and Explorer no.

     

     

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