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  •  » 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

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    8/26/2017 9:06 PM  #1

    6sally6
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    From: Surfside Beach,SC
    Registered: 4/02/2013
    Posts: 6,462

    351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    Got a pretty neat surprise the other day while snooping  around  in a friends garage. "Pretty sure" it was a Clev-or....maybe even one of the first ones!
    It was built by Bud Moore back in the early 70's(according to the owner) It had the funky look'in spacers between the intake and the heads and the intake looked a lot like the old Smokey Yunick  designed intake with a removable top. Don't know if FoMoCo made some kind of one off intake or if it was some kind of Bud Moore piece!?!
    It had only one carb(big Holley with the choke tower milled off) butt it looked like the top of the intake could be removed and a dual quad(maybe a crossram) plate  installed.
    Interesting to see. The owner said it hasn't been fired since he bought it  in the early 70's. Suppose to have been in "like new condition " when he got it. The owner is mainly a Chevy guy and so the Clev-or engine is just sitting there.  The carb is sealed up with about a 1/2 roll od duct tape and the tarp covering the rest of the engine has long since rotted away. Engine is complete with distrib....headers....etc.
    Bet it would take my old hot rod for a "stroll"!!
    6sal6

    Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
     

    8/26/2017 9:17 PM  #2

    HudginJ3
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    From: Cedar Hill, TX
    Registered: 4/29/2015
    Posts: 1,218

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    It would be neat to see a pic of something like that.

    70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     

    8/27/2017 1:06 AM  #3

    Al Newman
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    Registered: 4/08/2013
    Posts: 222

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    Used to see those setups around here occasionally back in the late '80s, early 90's.  They ran like stink but had heating, oiling, economy problems.  Do not recall anyone staying with the setup for long.  An interesting engineering project.
    Best
    Al

    Classic cars are full of surprises and almost none of them are good ones!
     

    8/27/2017 1:19 AM  #4

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
    Registered: 12/15/2014
    Posts: 7,090

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    Pretty much just a Boss 302.  Dropping the superior Cleveland heads on a Windsor block.  The Cleveland heads had canted valves like a Chevy big block.  The idea being a straighter shot through the port for better flow.  They worked quite well in that respect, but they were a high RPM design not well suited to the street.  When the Cleveland engines came out people quickly realized the 2V engine was a lot better for the street if you could get a 4 barrel carb on it.  The ports in the 4V heads were just too big, making the ports lazy at street RPM.  For racing with a powerband in the 5,000-7,500 RPM range they were hard to beat.

    The engine in question sounds like a race piece, with an intake designed to be ported, or paired with different tops to run multiple classes.  Snag some pics of it 6sally6 if you can.  I'd love to see it.  Vintage race mills are super cool. 

     

    8/27/2017 11:17 AM  #5

    Bullet Bob
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    From: Montrose, Colorado
    Registered: 4/01/2013
    Posts: 4,781

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    red351 wrote:

    AHHhh here we go again about 4V being too big and lazy for the street. The problem is a Cleveland doesn't follow same tuning rules as a wheezer and OEM factory iron can get you in a lot of trouble. Ask me how I kwow.........No...Don.t ask me ....just.trust me.... I know.....

    Yeah Rich butt, where did that Prius come from? 

    Sorry guys but if you didn't make Bash 13 you'll just have to wonder....or corner Rich at Bash 14.

    BB
     

    "you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
     

    8/27/2017 1:59 PM  #6

    Huskinhano
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    Registered: 4/26/2017
    Posts: 279

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    You're in the right area for that. My friend Bob in Pawleys Island knows someone who worked for one of the teams. He just bought a 55 Super Red Ram Heim from the guy for his next project.

    I'm not a complete idiot.....pieces are missing. Tom
     

    8/27/2017 8:05 PM  #7

    6sally6
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    From: Surfside Beach,SC
    Registered: 4/02/2013
    Posts: 6,462

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    Well........I took a few pics with my phone butt.....I took the picture and couldn't tell what I was looking at!
    Gotta remember this engine was LITERALLY stuffed over in a corner  with other crap laying on top and by and beside. Unless you were THERE...its hard to explain.
    Its like a story out of  "Barn Find USA"!!...At first glance it looked like an old  Big Block Ford (distrib in the front etc.) and then a closer look revealed the trick intake and carb.....then the spacers between the intake and heads. Then Rick(the shop owner) gave us the back story about Bud Moore.
    6s6
    PS........You fellas DO know who Bud Moore is...don't cha?! One of the pioneer engine builder/car owners of early NASCAR days (50's-70's)  Junior Johnson......Dale Jarrett.....Fireball Roberts...that crowd.
    His shop was in Spartanburg,S.C......?!
    Gotta be southern to appreciate him maybe.

    I wanna hear more about how to tune a Cleveland 4V to run on the street!!!!!!!!

    Last edited by 6sally6 (8/27/2017 8:06 PM)

    Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
       •Thread Starter
     

    8/27/2017 9:50 PM  #8

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
    Registered: 12/15/2014
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    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    Fill the intake port floors up 1/2" with epoxy and find a set of those header flanges that had fingers that go into the ports to raise the floors. 

    Or maybe run a 4.56 rear gear?

     

    8/27/2017 10:10 PM  #9

    RPM, aka Bearing Bob
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    From: Bakersfield, Ca
    Registered: 9/17/2013
    Posts: 3,256

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    6sally6 wrote:

    PS........You fellas DO know who Bud Moore is...don't cha?!

    I'm pretty sure every true blue Ford guy knows who Bud Moore is. Well, at least here anyway.
     

    Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
     

    8/28/2017 12:29 AM  #10

    50vert
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    From: QLD Australia
    Registered: 4/01/2013
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    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    TKOPerformance wrote:

    Fill the intake port floors up 1/2" with epoxy and find a set of those header flanges that had fingers that go into the ports to raise the floors.

    Or get a set of Ozzy 2v heads.
     

    "Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
     

    8/28/2017 6:19 AM  #11

    Grabber Blu
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    Registered: 10/13/2014
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    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    Good info here http://pantera.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5650045562/m/319104265

    Went from 2V to 4V closed camber heads and with the proper cam selection have no problem with low end power.  The info above explains the differences of what a Cleveland needs.  It's all in the "combo"

    Run 4V heads with a cam spec for a Chevy, 2.79 rear and auto and it will be a dog.  I have the right cam, 3.70 rear and 5 speed and driving normal every time you shift it's in the power band and just pulls

     

    8/28/2017 10:14 AM  #12

    Rudi
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    From: Stuck in the 50's Welland Ca
    Registered: 4/01/2013
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    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    red351 wrote:

    BINGO.... we have a winner....Grabber Blu got it....Closed camber heads with some smooth porting on ex. side only....  zero deck the block (as always I end up with some sticking out) with compression 10 plus but under 11.....lots of initial timing say starting  at 18 with full advance of around 36 deg. all in by 3000....cam with wide lobe sep and not to much over lap.... mild lift (some may disagree)....big carb.... healthy breathing  2 1/2" exhaust (again some will disagree).....93 octane at sea level.....3.50 gears works for me.   Smoking the tires never wins the race... and I still don't know where the cops keep coming from.....

    winner - - winner - - chicken diner!

    Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
     

    8/28/2017 10:21 AM  #13

    Grabber Blu
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    Registered: 10/13/2014
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    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    How about 114* LSA

     

    8/28/2017 2:30 PM  #14

    6sally6
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    From: Surfside Beach,SC
    Registered: 4/02/2013
    Posts: 6,462

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    Grabber Blu wrote:

    How about 114* LSA

    Idles like Granmaw'z  Sunday car!!!  (a shame)
    Whatever workz is the key!!
    I bet a 400 crank would make it more powerful and better mannerz too!?!
    6s6
     

    Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
       •Thread Starter
     

    8/28/2017 2:46 PM  #15

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
    Registered: 12/15/2014
    Posts: 7,090

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    The wide LSA is necessary to build as much dynamic compression as possible at low RPM to make the ports seem smaller.  Next to no overlap and very crisp valve action (shorter on the duration to further reduce overlap and a bit more lift to still get top end flow).  Its true, you can't just make a one size fits all profile and the only difference be the core its ground into. 

    The right gearing also helps get it up on the powerband sooner, and once its in the powerband in 1st gear the rest is easy so long as the ratios in the trans are reasonably spaced. 

    As always, its about the combination not just one trick part. 

     

    8/28/2017 3:38 PM  #16

    jerseyjoe
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    Registered: 4/01/2013
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    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    Or just find a set of Aussie heads....hmmmm I know where a set is.....jj

    "Never put a question mark where God put a period "  Richard Petty
     

    8/28/2017 3:59 PM  #17

    66 coupe
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    From: Lockhart & New Braunfels, Tx
    Registered: 5/16/2013
    Posts: 112

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    A lot of the early Boss Mustangs, circa 70-73, had an intake manifold that would either fit 4 DCOE weber carbs or one Holley by exchanging the top intake adapter.  Sort of sounds like what is on this one.  I guess it depends on if it is a Windsor or Cleveland block, a 302 or 351.

     

    8/28/2017 4:18 PM  #18

    Grabber Blu
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    Registered: 10/13/2014
    Posts: 122

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    6sally6 wrote:

    Grabber Blu wrote:

    How about 114* LSA

    Idles like Granmaw'z  Sunday car!!!  (a shame)
    Whatever workz is the key!!
    I bet a 400 crank would make it more powerful and better mannerz too!?!
    6s6
     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8c-2sWOM0s
    Doesn't sound like my Grandma's car, butt ,Forgot to add this is with EFI now and idles better than when it had carb
     

    Last edited by Grabber Blu (8/28/2017 4:29 PM)

     

    8/28/2017 6:48 PM  #19

    TKOPerformance
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    From: Newark, DE
    Registered: 12/15/2014
    Posts: 7,090

    Re: 351 "Clev-or" engine..........

    66 coupe wrote:

    A lot of the early Boss Mustangs, circa 70-73, had an intake manifold that would either fit 4 DCOE weber carbs or one Holley by exchanging the top intake adapter.  Sort of sounds like what is on this one.  I guess it depends on if it is a Windsor or Cleveland block, a 302 or 351.

    BUT, those intakes wouldn't have required spacers because they were designed for Cleveland heads on a Windsor block (that's what a Boss 302 essentially is).  Now if we are getting into the Boss 351 that might be a different story.  The Boss 351 was a 100% Cleveland engine, so if you put an intake on it designed for a Windsor deck height it would require spacers. 
     

     

     

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