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A few months back Brad posted questions regarding perceived high vibration in his car, If I recall the details, it has a 347 stroker and a five-speed conversion and he bought the car with these mods already in place. In the background I have been working with Brad to see if we could find the potential cause/issue. There are some unknowns that complicate matters so it is difficult to nail this exactly. For example, the stroker motor was built by a shop that had some significant quality issues before they went belly up so the actual balance quality of the rotating and reciprocating parts cannot be ensured. There is a balance sheet that the original purchaser received but there is no way to know if the numbers are accurate or "pencil whipped". The balance quality of the flywheel and pressure plate is also not known.
However, all that said, in order to troubleshoot a vibration issue you need data. Seat of the pants and assumptions will lead to tail-chasing and the replacement of parts that are often not related to the problem. I found an older vibration tool in my pile of equipment that is capable of collecting high quality vibration spectra, The unit provides accurate vibration frequencies and amplitudes. I sent this off to Brad along with some recommended settings so we could collect appropriate readings. The instrument was obsoleted a number of years ago but with persistence I was finally able to snag a copy of the supporting software so I could more fully analyze the data. Brad collected data at several locations including the shifter, dash, and on the engine block itself. The vibration that Brad felt while driving and and sitting still in neutral increases with engine speed reaching a peak around 4250 RPM and it actually falls a little beyond that. This tends to eliminate simple unbalance. Unbalance forces increase with the square of the speed - double the speed, four times the force.
To see what was changing with the speed, readings were collected at 2000, 3000, and 4250 RPM. The readings were collected in units of velocity (inches per second) which is a common measurement unit used to evaluate overall rotating equipment vibration performance. In cases where there are no natural frequencies, the vibration at the shaft speed will increase in a linear fashion in velocity. in a reciprocating engine some of the vibration will increase at a slightly greater rate. For example, engine firing forces will increase even when under no-load conditions because of increased bearing friction as speed increases. Very large increases in vibration with increased speed, on the other hand, are not normal.
The vibration readings taken on the engine block in the horizontal direction show a fairly uniform increase consistent with speed. The levels are not what I would consider to be precision but I am used to working with large industrial machines more than car engines. I hope to take some readings on a neighbors small block when time permits to compare with Brad's engine levels.
The readings on the shifter, also in the horizontal direction, paint a different picture. The first reading shown below was taken at 2000 RPM. I have labeled the running speed (engine rpm) and 2X running speed. 2X running speed can have a number of sources including a bent shaft or axial flywheel runout but the most common source would be reciprocating forces. For every revolution of the shaft there are two reciprocating forces - the piston moving up to the top of the bore and then returning to the bottom. The reciprocating forces in some cases will cancel when the assembly is properly balanced and in some engines such as in-line 4's they never will. This is why you will see "balance shafts" in some of these engines - especially those running at high speeds. As can be seen in the following plot, the 2X vibration level at 2000 rpm is actually fairly low. To the hand, which is a fairly good vibration instrument, the vibration would feel low or normal.
At 3000 rpm, the vibration increased slightly as expected. At 4250 rpm, however, the vibration is dramatically higher. With the older software I was not able to plot the two readings on the same vertical scale but I was able to get them close. Visually, it is easy to see that the vibration at 1X (engine speed) is larger but the vibration at 2X is huge. A basic calculation of the overall vibration puts it above 0.9 inches per second. A very smooth 3600 rpm pump in a refinery might run at .02 or ,03, a common alarm for industrial equipment is .3, so .9 represents a very high amplitude which is easily felt with hands. By the way, there are some peaks that show up a 1/2 times, 1-1/2 times rpm, etc. These are usually fractional subharmonics that are common on reciprocating machines and at this point are not cause for concern.
The very large increase cannot be explained by normal vibration forces. There is a strong indication that there is a resonance issue where there is a natural frequency of the engine/transmission assembly on its mounts near 4250 rpm. It takes two conditions to produce resonance - a force and a natural frequency. The engine cannot be eliminated completely because of the unknowns listed above. Since we are not going to tear apart the engine then the only other option at this point is to attempt to alter the natural frequency.
So, Brad, when you pull the car out of winter storage, here are a few tests. This is troubleshooting and without much more sophisticated tools the only option is to make calculated changes and observe.
1. Remove the rear transmission mount (not the cross member) and stack some rags in place of the mount to replicate the height of the mount. Start the engine and test (by feel) the vibration at 2000, 3000, and 4250 rpm and report the results. Obviously, driving tests are not recommended with no mount.
2. Make a wooden block and put it in place of the mount. You can probably just use longer bolts on the mount to transmission and lag screws from the cross member to the mount. Repeat the tests conducted in 1. As long as you don't dump the clutch you can also perform a quick road test. Wood will have enough "give" so that you are not producing loads on the transmission case that a solid mount would. With the wood mount the the noise level inside the car will be higher but focus on the shifter. A calibrated finger or hand vibration level is sufficient to compare as-is, to no mount, to wooden mount.
3. If not too difficult remove the shifter handle and repeat the rpm tests on the stub shaft on top of the transmission in the horizontal direction with the current mount. Though not high on my list, the combined mass and stiffness of the shifter system may have an rpm sensitivity and that the mount system is fine. You won't know unless you test.
In test 1, the natural frequency is reduced which should move any problem vibration to a lower rpm.. in test 2 the natural frequency is increased and the problem rpm should also rise.
If there is no change with either of these tests it likely indicates that there is something else causing the increased vibration such as the exhaust system becoming a tuning fork. Test and report the results before moving to other testing or components.
The apparent system sensitivity to 2X rpm also indicates that the driveline could also contribute to the problem. In 4th gear at 1:1, a driveline misalignment due to unequal u-joint angles will excite torsional oscillations of the driveshaft that are not properly cancelled. This torsional vibration will also be a 2X engine speed (again when in 4th). If I recall, I believe that you have messed with driveline angles and that the vibration did improve slightly.
Last, if a problem with the rear mounts is identified, simply changing the mount to poly or rubber or some combination may not be the solution. Many of the aftermarket cross members that are used for conversions do not properly support the transmission. If you read the Tremec installation instructions they clearly state that a cantilevered mount should not be used. In some cases you may get away with it and in other cases the loading into the cross member will be in torsion (twisting.bending moment) rather than a nice straight load. Between two older cars with unknown histories and modifications you may find that the same setup on one car may work well and on another will shake like crazy. For my TKO conversion I moved the entire cross member back to center it under the mount. Probably retentive but Murphy and I don't get along well so I try to prevent issues in advance.
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Most excellent information, thank you sir.
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This will be a lengthy post so bear with me. Doing process of elimination wouldn't be too difficult although it would involve removing parts. What I would do is first compare vibration in neutral with clutch engaged and disengaged. If the vibration changes It could be trans input shaft related, clutch disc, pressure plate if it is a centerforce with weights, or the builder neglected to put the pilot shaft bearing in the crank or their input shaft is not reaching the crank. If any of these are the case removing the transmission and inspecting said areas would be next step, even if there is no change and you make it to the last step inspect these areas anyways, they may be an issue regardless the clutch is in or out.
If there is no change in vibration remove the drive belts, AC, alt, water pump etc and run your RPM test to see if there was any noticeable change, don't overheat engine without fan if it is belt driven. If yes then you have narrowed it down to accessories. If no reinstall belts.
If no- next step and this is the last thing you could do to test or visually check. Remove transmission and inspect the clutch pressure plate to make sure it is bolted onto the flywheel correctly (or if it a centerforce clutch that the weights aren't stuck in one position), if no then you may have found your problem, tighten and retest. If not loose check to see if there any weights or metal slugs welded to the pressure plate or any areas where anything welded may have fallen off. If there are areas where it looks like something was welded on and fell off you have found a problem. If there are pieces welded onto the pressure plate it may be possible that it is not clocked correctly to the flywheel. In order to test a new position you will need a clutch installation tool and a torque wrench.Mark pressure plate and flywheel for a reference point and remove pressure plate and turn it one position clockwise. Reinstall with clutch disc and torque to spec, make sure pressure plate or flywheel will not hit the firewall and run engine to check vibration. You may have to turn the plate once or twice more depending on how many bolt locations your pressure plate has to eliminate all possibilities. If the pressure plate location ( you could do this first actually) has not caused a noticeable change remove it and run engine without the clutch and pressure plate installed. If the vibration goes away then the clutch and pressure plate was your issue. If no change check to see if the flywheel is bolted on correctly and square to back of engine. Run engine again looking to see any wobbling or out of round. If yes Flywheel could be issue. If no then it is down to either engine balance or engine missfire due to either electrical or mechanical problem. If vibration issue comes down to flywheel you would need it rebalanced to the spec sheet provided it was good information all along and not some bogus stuff. This is final part of the pick your adventure book. If the vibration issue still continues after inspecting the flywheel and you have narrowed it down to the engine, check the ignition stuff first, plugs, plug gap, ignition wire resistance and distributor cap. Mechanically misfiring it could go down to valvetrain, make sure all the valves are opening correctly, most of the time these problems would create their own noises so it would be fairly easy to diagnose. If the vibration still continues sadly its probably engine balance, and that would mean a complete tear down of the engine. Hopefully some of this helps you out.
Last edited by MachTJ (12/04/2017 4:49 PM)
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Excellent suggestions. You are spot on with the approach you outlined. Behind the scenes we (Brad with me remotely at the keyboard) did nearly everything you mentioned before the vibration readings were taken - I just didn't outline them in my post, There is some suspicion about the crank pulley and damper but most tests did not show an appreciable difference with or without the accessories, pulleys, belts on, belts off, etc. The vibration readings taken on the block near the front of the engine were not terrible and did not show the same characteristics that were observed back at the shifter. The seat of the pants vibration was the same with the clutch engaged and disengaged and the same pattern was present out on the road and sitting on the driveway. This would indicate that the clutch assembly is not at fault but as mentioned in my original post, resonance takes two things - a force and a natural frequency. In many cases with resonance, the forces are normal and we just have amplification which I am hoping is the case this time.
If the results of the tests I suggested are inconclusive it will probably require pulling the transmission and checking the items you mention related to the clutch, flywheel, and pressure plate. From the data, however, the problem does not appear to be simple unbalance and issues with the clutch assembly usually produce high vibration at engine speed and not 2X engine speed. If the transmission does have to come out, I would probably pull the flywheel and balance the flywheel and pressure plate as an assembly since everything is apart and one more variable can be checked off of the list.
The current very high levels at the shifter point more towards resonant amplification at this point rather than engine balance. Notice that I am using what I refer to as vibration weasel words (not trying to disrespect weasels). Since I am not there taking the readings myself and don't have data that I usually acquire when performing field consulting jobs I have to say "point towards", "usually", and "in most cases". There are a lot of variables when doing this type of work. Without additional data, a controlled process of elimination is often (another weasel word) the best approach. This is exactly what you are describing in your post - check, correct, and re-test..
I agree that if all else fails, the issue is probably internal to the engine but I, and I am sure Brad, want to exhaust all other possibilities before going to the extreme of a rebuild/rebalance. But hopefully Brad will get lucky and it will be an easy fix with something external.
Also, in case anyone is wondering, this is not a simple 50 versus 28 oz-in issue. Most 347 cranks require a 28 oz-in flywheel. If someone had installed a 50 oz-in flywheel, the vibration would be severe across the entire range and not speed dependent as in this case.
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"Lug nuts tight"?!
6sal6
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GPatrick wrote:
Excellent suggestions. You are spot on with the approach you outlined. Behind the scenes we (Brad with me remotely at the keyboard) did nearly everything you mentioned before the vibration readings were taken - I just didn't outline them in my post, There is some suspicion about the crank pulley and damper but most tests did not show an appreciable difference with or without the accessories, pulleys, belts on, belts off, etc. The vibration readings taken on the block near the front of the engine were not terrible and did not show the same characteristics that were observed back at the shifter. The seat of the pants vibration was the same with the clutch engaged and disengaged and the same pattern was present out on the road and sitting on the driveway. This would indicate that the clutch assembly is not at fault but as mentioned in my original post, resonance takes two things - a force and a natural frequency. In many cases with resonance, the forces are normal and we just have amplification which I am hoping is the case this time.
If the results of the tests I suggested are inconclusive it will probably require pulling the transmission and checking the items you mention related to the clutch, flywheel, and pressure plate. From the data, however, the problem does not appear to be simple unbalance and issues with the clutch assembly usually produce high vibration at engine speed and not 2X engine speed. If the transmission does have to come out, I would probably pull the flywheel and balance the flywheel and pressure plate as an assembly since everything is apart and one more variable can be checked off of the list.
The current very high levels at the shifter point more towards resonant amplification at this point rather than engine balance. Notice that I am using what I refer to as vibration weasel words (not trying to disrespect weasels). Since I am not there taking the readings myself and don't have data that I usually acquire when performing field consulting jobs I have to say "point towards", "usually", and "in most cases". There are a lot of variables when doing this type of work. Without additional data, a controlled process of elimination is often (another weasel word) the best approach. This is exactly what you are describing in your post - check, correct, and re-test..
I agree that if all else fails, the issue is probably internal to the engine but I, and I am sure Brad, want to exhaust all other possibilities before going to the extreme of a rebuild/rebalance. But hopefully Brad will get lucky and it will be an easy fix with something external.
Also, in case anyone is wondering, this is not a simple 50 versus 28 oz-in issue. Most 347 cranks require a 28 oz-in flywheel. If someone had installed a 50 oz-in flywheel, the vibration would be severe across the entire range and not speed dependent as in this case.
For what it's worth these items should be balanced with the rotating assembly of the engine. Most engine shops that do balancing would atleast be able to confirm or check the balance with the information provided on the balance sheet. Again unless the balance sheet is filled with bogus information. If indeed it is 2x engine speed, the only thing that moves that fast is a piston and connecting rod assembly and those weights would have to be off significantly to feel it or a weight was welded into the throw of a crank 180 degrees out. Who knows with a questionable machine shop though, all it takes is a shop that does work like the guy that welded that rack and pinion in that car like in one of the other posts on the forum.
Last edited by MachTJ (12/04/2017 7:31 PM)
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MachTJ - You are correct - it would have to be pretty far off to produce that much vibration on its own so resonant amplification seems to be the likely culprit - a little bit of force and a lot of response. The levels of the readings taken on the engine block show fairly normal behavior but not exactly smooth. This plot shows a comparison of the shifter on the left and the block on the right. The vibration at 2X is about 3 times higher and one would expect that the vibration out at the shifter would actually be a little lower than the levels measured on the block.
As far as the 28 versus 50, the experience of most I have talked to that made this error was more towards the excessive side - often to the point of not being able to run the engine. A little quick math. At 1000 RPM the vibration force due to the 22 oz-in difference would produce a dynamic force of roughly 40 pounds. At 2000 RPM this jumps to 156 and at 4000 RPM it is 624 pounds. Those values represent the dynamic loads that the bearings will see. With real soft mounts some of this energy will be reduced into the frame. Even if what you felt was just a wobble the bearings certainly were crying for mercy. Apparently actual experiences will differ.
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Gary,
Thank you again for your help with this matter. The car is put away for the winter now so it will be spring before I get a chance to proceed with the troubleshooting. You did not mention the dash readings. Did they provide any useful information? -Brad
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The readings on the dash show elevated but not extreme amplitudes right around 2000 rpm (33 Hz). As the speed increased beyond 2000 the vibration at engine speed decreased. Contrary to what was seen on the shifter, the vibration at 2X rpm was very low. At 4250 the 1/2X subharmonic was elevated since it was close to 2000 CPM (cycles per minute) which helps to prove that there is a natural frequency of the dash/cowl/firewall right around this frequency. This could be the dash itself or something mounted to the dash such as an unsupported radio. The readings with the clutch in and out were similar. The amplitude varied more than likely due to the strain/stiffness that is added to the dash and.or firewall when pressing on the clutch pedal since it is connected into the dash and firewall from the pedal support. It will be important to see if this changes when performing the transmission mount changes. There has to be a path for the vibration to travel from the source to the dash. Modifying the rear mount will change this path. The suggestions are all based on a quest to find some problem other than the balance quality of the motor. Contact me when you pull it out of storage in the Spring and we can step through the tests and results.
Just to refresh my memory, what kind of mounts are you currently running at the engine and transmission? Where these installed by the PO or have you replaced them?
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Gary,
The front mounts are stock Ford with the bolts that I had placed through the one on the drivers side backed way off. We had discussed the fact that I had pinned that mount and you suggested that I remove the bolts, I backed them way off figuring that might be enough for the test. It was a lot easier than pulling the mount completely off and removing the bolts. The passenger side mount has not been modified. As for the transmission, I believe it is a stock Ford rubber mount. The crossmember is one that Keisler provided with their "Perfect fit kit" for installation of the TKO-600 transmission into the 66 Mustang. All parts are new or almost new. -Brad
Last edited by BradH (12/06/2017 8:19 PM)
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