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3/15/2018 4:35 AM  #1


learning on carburator cfm

Hi All , 
I have some trouble to understand the right cfm for my oem 289 engine .
Many times i found suggestions for 500/ 600 to be a regular swap, but i had big trouble to set up a 600.
i really dont' understand in which way some people use this size without any issue.
Maybe this guys are using different manifolds or headers or some else to use at best the bigger carb ?
Now my situation is like this : the new one holley 600 is on the shelf ready to be sold , and the old autolite that has nothing stamped on it so could be all or nothing (from 390 to 450 )
Now the only way to run is with the old one , but still too rich and i got gasoline or exaust smell inside car.
I bought also the gauge for hg and with my big surprise is steady at 19 ( quite to perfection) without any fluctation.
Also fuel line pressure has an average 5 /6 psi .
Can someone explain me why i found suggestion for 390 / 500/ 600 cfm  ?  These  refers as 289 stock.
Here in italy we are using a different way to determinate the right carb so , is coming an issue choose a new carb right for my mustang.

Thank you for teaching me !

 

3/15/2018 5:11 AM  #2


Re: learning on carburator cfm

Lots of different reasons.

First, there are a couple different 289s.  A regular A code 289 (4 barrel) had a 390cfm carb stock.  Peak power is 225 at 4,800RPM.  A K code (4 barrel solid lifter) had a larger carb and made peak power of 271HP at 5,700 PRM.  Very few guys are running stock anymore, so once you change the heads, cam, exhaust, intake, etc. you move the power into the upper RPM, where it needs more fuel. 

Second, different manufacturers rate their carburetors differently.  My supposition is that Edelbrock for example rates their carbs at a different depression (vacuum measured in in. of Hg) than Holley.  When you change the depression through the carb you change the air that is drawn through it.  Its somewhat dishonest, but think of it like how advertised duration on cams can vary widely between manufacturers.

Third, you never know what people really mean when they say an engine runs good.  Some guys think that the poor idle that comes from a carb that's too big is how its supposed to run.

I can tell you I do in fact have a stock A code 289 that is a Ford reman engine.  Nothing on it is modified except for the timing.  The Edelbrock 500 I run works very well.  In truth the Autolite it had ran pretty well too.  I swapped to the Edelbrock because parts are scarce for the Autolite and I wanted to be able to tune the carb. 

 

3/15/2018 7:07 AM  #3


Re: learning on carburator cfm

The biggest problem I always had helping folks fix their too big of Carb problems was to get the thing to idle any where near smooth. The carb is basically the control system for your engine. I always was trained to look at a control system being best in the middle of it's total range and never apply it less than 10 percent or more than 90 percent. Which means with a small block Windsor at 289 cubes you need about 50 cfm at idle. That is less than 10 percent of a 600 cfm carb and right at the bottom of a 500. I have a 600 on my small blocks only because that is what I had on the shelf and my wallet was empty. To make it work well I had to add an idle air circuit by drilling small holes in the primary throttle plates and have the throttle plates very close to shut at idle. Most Idle air goes through the little holes. Trial and error was employed to get the hole size right. Other than that, the 600 worked fine since my motors do see 8000 rpm.

 

3/15/2018 8:21 AM  #4


Re: learning on carburator cfm

I certainly can't teach any lessons on cfm, but I can say that a 500cfm Edelbrock has worked well on my 289 both when it was mostly stock and even still after swapping the cam, doing some mild head porting, and adding Tri-Y headers.  I'll also add that the metering rods in the Edelbrock make it easy to make small adjustments without disassembling the carb.

 

3/15/2018 10:04 AM  #5


Re: learning on carburator cfm

Michael H. wrote:

I certainly can't teach any lessons on cfm, but I can say that a 500cfm Edelbrock has worked well on my 289 both when it was mostly stock and even still after swapping the cam, doing some mild head porting, and adding Tri-Y headers.  I'll also add that the metering rods in the Edelbrock make it easy to make small adjustments without disassembling the carb.

Best advice for your situation...

 

3/15/2018 3:52 PM  #6


Re: learning on carburator cfm

If you do decide to go that route be aware that the extra metering rods, jets, springs do not come with the carburetor, so you may want to order the tuning kit when you order the carburetor.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1486

 

3/15/2018 5:56 PM  #7


Re: learning on carburator cfm

The design of the Autolites are IMO great.  The issue is replacement parts and tuning.  Holleys enjoy a following because there are a lot of parts out there for them.  Edelbrocks to a lesser extent, though really they're just a reworked Carter AFB (which both GM and Mopar used on musclecars). 

 

3/15/2018 9:48 PM  #8


Re: learning on carburator cfm

I was advise to use a 750 Edelbrock on my engine and was told it would be to big and a 600 would be to small. So I would need to de tune it. I've been messing with it for ever leaning it out till I finally figured out that the distributor was no good. When I put in the Duraspark it changed the way it ran and I was able to tune the carb a lot easier. Turns out I had it too lean. It runs a lot smoother now.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

3/16/2018 2:55 AM  #9


Re: learning on carburator cfm

Thanks for teaching!  Ok i will search something from 390\500  and try to set it .
I hope to solve this and ride again !
Thanks to all ! 😁

     Thread Starter
 

3/16/2018 6:56 AM  #10


Re: learning on carburator cfm

In this video by Summit, the presenter shows some carb size math at time index 3:40.  His calculations for a street engine 302 came out at 445.65 cfm.  Even for a race engine 302, his calculation was 576.73 cfm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JdXrblkbd4


1968 T-code Coupe with a 302.  Nice car, no show stopper for sure, but I like it.
 

3/16/2018 3:12 PM  #11


Re: learning on carburator cfm

I use the following formula to size carb to engine   cfm =max rpm x cubic inch  divided by 3456  dont remember where i got this formula   but actually works fairly well

 

3/16/2018 3:55 PM  #12


Re: learning on carburator cfm

I get where he's going with the math.  Engine size (the volume of air the engine can theoretically ingest) x RPM (this gives you the number of times you have to fill the engine each minute) x volumetic efficiency (engine's can vary on this based on how efficient they are, a street engine is usually in the 85% range, race engines get closer to or even exceed 100%, though that's tough naturally aspirated because you have to actually create a ram effect to slightly overload the cylinders to get beyond 100%) / 3456 (took me a little while to figure this out, but its actually pretty easy)  You have to convert cubic inches to cubic feet, there are 1728 cubic inches in a cubic foot.  Then you multiply that by 2, because what you are really doing is halving the volume you just figured out in the first part.  Why are you halving it?  Simple, RPM is a measure of crankshaft revolutions, but you don't fuel each cylinder on each revolution; you only fuel every other revolution in a 4 stroke engine, like so:

Revolution 1 starts at TDC having just expelled the exhaust from the last combustion event, it travels to BTC as the intake vale opens to fill it with air and fuel, then returns to TDC to compress the air and fuel.

Revolution 2 starts the the spark plug fires as the piston approaches TDC on the compression stroke sending it doward to BDC on the power stroke, and finally it returns to TDC as the exhaust valve opens to expel the exhaust.

Now that's a great formula, I know I've seen it before, and it should get you close.  Of course there's more to it than that, and I suspect there's some tweaking being done with the number used for VE to compensate for that.  In general a street engine tends to run better with a smaller carb because they idle better, have better throttle response, and bolster low speed torque.  A race engine only cares about power at higher RPM and that means a bigger carb tends to serve better, even if the engines are nearly identical (e.g. class rules mandate stock parts). 
 

 

3/17/2018 8:18 AM  #13


Re: learning on carburator cfm

Please see my recent previous post on using a Holley 600 on a small block.  I have on one my car and have successfully run them on many small block engines with great success.  If you have 19 inches of vacuum, then the power valve you should start with is a "10."  That's assuming you read the vacuum from a point below the throttle blades and the engine was fully warmed up.  Which one is on the carb?  What size jets are in it?  Did you set the fuel level correctly?  Did you adjust the idle mixture screws on the side of the metering block (not the idle speed screw on the throttle)?


Cheap, Fast, Good:  Pick Any Two
 

4/12/2018 9:29 AM  #14


Re: learning on carburator cfm

jkordzi wrote:

Please see my recent previous post on using a Holley 600 on a small block.  I have on one my car and have successfully run them on many small block engines with great success.  If you have 19 inches of vacuum, then the power valve you should start with is a "10."  That's assuming you read the vacuum from a point below the throttle blades and the engine was fully warmed up.  Which one is on the carb?  What size jets are in it?  Did you set the fuel level correctly?  Did you adjust the idle mixture screws on the side of the metering block (not the idle speed screw on the throttle)?

Sorry for late reply ...
I prefer follow the suggestion about selling it , instead of making a revolution just to make it work.
More , this one was refurbished , and may something went wrong ...
Yesterday i sold it and now i am looking for something else littlier.

I got just one question: i have read the vacuum from the carb. spacer inlet - is it correct ?  

Now i am looking at edelbrock 500 because is easyer to dial ( as people says )

Thanks for info ! 

 

     Thread Starter
 

4/12/2018 10:54 AM  #15


Re: learning on carburator cfm

About edelbrock 500 there are three different type:

  Performance 1404 manual choke
  thunder series avs  1802  manual choke
  avs 2  1902  manual choke

Does someone use one of these or have some information about i will appreciate . 
i have found one good deal with one of it and i wont snooze a lot .
Thanks 

     Thread Starter
 

4/12/2018 12:05 PM  #16


Re: learning on carburator cfm

You can read vacuum anywhere below the throttle blades.  If you see a port that is above the blades its called a "timed" port, meaning it only gets vacuum when the throttle blades are open (anything but idle).  Don't read vacuum there.  You can experiment with whether or not the engine runs better with the vacuum advance for the distributor connected to timed vs. manifold vacuum if you want, but that's about it. 

As for the different series, I would run a 1403.  That's what I run.  Its an electric choke with mechanical secondaries.  The AVS uses Air Valve Secondaries, translation: vacuum secondaries.  I've never been a fan of vacuum secondaries on a car with a manual transmission.  The 1403 is also a little cheaper than the AVS carbs. 

 

4/12/2018 1:24 PM  #17


Re: learning on carburator cfm

I personally would go with this Summit carb. <https://www.summitracing.com/oh/parts/sum-m08500vs/overview/> Its a clone of the Autolite 4100, arguably the best carb ever made.
I had a 4100 on my 289 that was rebuilt by John Enyeart, Pony Carbs, alas long gone. The only engine upgrades it had were a mild Edelbrock cam and tri-y headers, it was a sweet running easy starting engine.
 Summit has reproduced the 4100 in this version and made the same type of mods that Pony did in their rebuilds.
 For me Carter/Edelbrock carbs never looked right on a Ford


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

4/14/2018 11:28 AM  #18


Re: learning on carburator cfm

I have the 600 Summit on my 347 at 7000ft elevation. Runs nice and crisp. Have a few people I know have also gone that route and all happy with results.
Read the reviews on their website, not much negive feedback.


67 Coupe Resto Mod 347 T5 MGW
 

4/14/2018 9:07 PM  #19


Re: learning on carburator cfm

"Al" keep in mind you will get MANY opinions of brands of carbs.
I'm in the Edelbrock camp because........they are so EZ to tune and rebuild! Get the tune up kit like Michael sez.
Vacuum secondaries (AVS) is what I have and I think would be your best carb.
Later on we can teach you how to make the seconderies "pop-open" like the mechanical sec.
Edelbrock carb ANDE the tuning kit..........hard to NOT get it tuned right!
6sal6 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

4/15/2018 10:00 AM  #20


Re: learning on carburator cfm

Didn't realise it till yesterday but Summit also has a 500 cfm.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-m08500vs


67 Coupe Resto Mod 347 T5 MGW
 

4/15/2018 1:03 PM  #21


Re: learning on carburator cfm

I know the automatic transmission requires modulator valve vacuum but what else is the difference between automatic transmission vacuum and standard transmission vacuum when activating the secondaries?

 

4/15/2018 2:13 PM  #22


Re: learning on carburator cfm

The transmission will get it's vacuum from the vacuum manifold tree as usual, the carb secondary gets it's vacuum signal from within the carburetor it self.


67 Coupe Resto Mod 347 T5 MGW
 

4/15/2018 2:56 PM  #23


Re: learning on carburator cfm

Thanks 1toomany.
The video posted earlier says that vacuum secondaries, work better for a automatic transmission set up than they do for a standard shift transmission set up. But doesn't say why.
And it is also stated that mechanical secondaries, work better than vacuum secondaries for a standard shift transmission. But no one says why. lol So, I'm trying to understand why?
Because I'm, set up with a standard shift transmission.. My secondaries used to open vacuum wise but now they're stuck closed. I "think" this is due to worn out throttle shafts and butterfly sticking on my 4100 autolite (which I'm keeping regardless) because it will, open one or two times vacuum wise but then it closes and won't open again unless opened by hand and this starts all over again, no open vacuum wise.
Putting this together, if the secondaries won't open. Who thinks this is tied in with a lack of vacuum, at high RPM, and also causing excessive blow-by?
Thanks a million!

 

4/15/2018 4:54 PM  #24


Re: learning on carburator cfm

Not sure about the blow-by? I was running a 4100 on my 67 with a mild 302 and an automatic 279? rear gears. Ran fine, no real performance to be expected especially at 7000 ft.
I built a 347, put in a t-5 manual and 4:11 rear with the Summit 600cfm vac secondaries. I have run the light spring on the secondaries and have been real happy with all aspects of the carb. Starting cold or hot has been flawless now for 2 years.
I do have an AFR gauge and dropped a couple jet sizes front and back for the elevation. I can hit the pedal one time and start it and walk away even with a snotty cam. Never slobbers. Light car and light secondary has worked pretty good  even with the manual. I have 10-11 inches idle vac and it has good street manners.
For $299 I would put that 8500vs on a 289 without hesitation. Read the reviews on it and the 600.


67 Coupe Resto Mod 347 T5 MGW
 

4/15/2018 5:02 PM  #25


Re: learning on carburator cfm

Good advice! I like vacuum secondaries too. Especially as a daily street driver, 289 standard shift 3 speed. 19-20mpg. Even without secondaries opening, first gear, 0 to 60 in just under 6 seconds.

6sally6 wrote:

"Al" keep in mind you will get MANY opinions of brands of carbs.
I'm in the Edelbrock camp because........they are so EZ to tune and rebuild! Get the tune up kit like Michael sez.
Vacuum secondaries (AVS) is what I have and I think would be your best carb.
Later on we can teach you how to make the seconderies "pop-open" like the mechanical sec.
Edelbrock carb ANDE the tuning kit..........hard to NOT get it tuned right!
6sal6 

 

 

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