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9/01/2018 9:21 AM  #1


No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Several years ago, I helped my father in law restore his 65 fastback.



Since he originally imagined this being his daily driver as he retired, he thought he wanted an EFI setup. We found a 92 Mustang GT donor and grafted the EFI setup into his 65. I looks about like this today.



For several years, this car has run like a top. This spring, (several months ago), the old gal simply wouldn't start. I have tried to stay out of his business, because Pops really is a pretty savvy diagnostician. But to date, he has not found the problem, and has resorted to driving his bowtie. I'm trekking over to Kansas City to spend the weekend there, and thought you guys might help me walk through a list so that I could get her up and running again. I'd love to be able to do this for him, with him.

Here's what I am told:

1. There is zero spark.

2. Pops says it is not the coil.

3. Pops says he swapped the computer as a diagnostic tool and still got no spark, (although he got the ECM from me, and I can't swear it is functional). When the spark was not restored, he placed the original computer from the GT back in his car.

I cannot personally attest to any of these tidbits, but as I said, he is in general, a pretty good problem-tracker-downer. To be safe, perhaps I should simply say, we seem to have no spark. For those of you who are unfamiliar with me, I know just enough to be dangerous, I'm humble, and I take directions pretty well. Oh, and I'm super-appreciative!

To those of you who have it in your heart to help, where do I start?

Thanks ahead of time. I know more than a few of you really know your stuff!

Lance

 

9/01/2018 1:34 PM  #2


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

OK!!!......I'll start.
I don't have FI butt I've had all kindza poop happen to me concerning electrical. (Like at the last MSBB!)
One thing that stumped me really bad in the past was.....there is an electrical plug on the firewall(driverside)...if that ain't mak'in good connection.....a lot of nuth'in happens!!
CXheck that.
Jumper around everything and insure you have voltage to the starter.....
kinda work backwards from the battery until you come to a spot where there is NO spark.
"Just-the-basics-'mam" as Joe Friday would say.
Got power to the ignition switch?
Headlights work?
Interior lights work?
All these little things can provide a pathway to solving this.
I find it hard to believe something just "KILLED " everything.
Gotta be some little something/or two
How bout grounds?!!(BIG-BIG problem with these old ponys)
6s6
PS........Let us know how it comes out!! 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

9/01/2018 5:31 PM  #3


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

No spark on a Ford EFI setup could be associated with several things.
One part known to fail resulting in a no spark situation is the TFI.  They will fail without warning.  It's located on the side of distributor and held on by two torx screws that may require a special tool to access them. I got one at the local auto parts store......they may even have a loaner tool.
A wire connector plugs into the TFI......unplug, remove screws, remove TFI...

Google TFI to learn more about it...inquire if the auto parts store can test the TFI before purchasing a new one.

Just one suggestion to look into......

Last edited by josh-kebob (9/02/2018 5:39 AM)

 

9/01/2018 6:30 PM  #4


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Verify that there is power to the coil with the engine cranking.  If not then you have to troubleshoot that back through the wiring.  You could also jump the coil to the battery so you know its getting power and see if it will start then. 

Then I would go to the TFI module first too.  Its easy enough to swap, and not terribly expensive.  Obviously, a known good one is the best way to test because you don't have to buy anything.  The factory modules were always troublesome.  They would quit without warning, and once you started improving the engine's breathing the spark would crap out above 3,500 RPM.  I'd keep a good stock one around just in case, but I'd swap over to an aftermarket module, especially if you plan performance upgrades. 

Its unlikely that this is the computer.  The old computers are very reliable and I actually can't remember ever needing to replace one in a Ford.  The technology is absurdly simple by today's standards.

 

9/02/2018 12:52 AM  #5


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

My guess is TFI module or PIP sensor. Swap out the distributor if you have a spare.
Can you pull any codes?

Last edited by 50vert (9/02/2018 12:57 AM)


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

9/02/2018 5:08 AM  #6


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Probably too simple a suspect to be the problem, but how was the inertia switch dealt with when the car was built?   Did you keep one or bypass it?   If you are still hunting a culprit, something to check.  


If multiple things can go wrong, the one that will go wrong will be the one that causes the most damage.
 

9/02/2018 5:32 AM  #7


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Greg B wrote:

Probably too simple a suspect to be the problem, but how was the inertia switch dealt with when the car was built?   Did you keep one or bypass it?   If you are still hunting a culprit, something to check.  

If the fuel pump is running it rules out the inertia switch.  Easy check.  If you hear the pump run, and you've got pressure at the rail the switch isn't causing your issue. 
 

 

9/02/2018 7:52 AM  #8


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Thanks guys. Pops replaced the coil with new, And the TFI on the side of the distributor with new, but has not replaced the PIP. He does have the pump functioning with key. I suppose that leaves the PIP as suspect. We have not tried jumping power straight to coil yet.

Thanks, and we’ll keep you posted.

     Thread Starter
 

9/02/2018 11:21 AM  #9


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

We have now replaced the PIP. That was unnecessarily complicated! No bueno. From previous posts, he had already replaced the TFI, and the coil. He also tested and replaced the relay to see if that could be the problem. No luck there either. We do have 12 volts at the coil. But it seems zero energy coming out of the coil. If the coil isn’t throwing a spark, is it possible he replaced a bad coil with another bad coil? What else could cause a coil not to throw sparks if it has 12 v going in?

     Thread Starter
 

9/02/2018 11:51 AM  #10


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Chap enough to try a "coil swap"! If that ain't the problem take it back to the store for a refund! Simple
Keep look'in
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

9/02/2018 12:11 PM  #11


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

New-new coil, and we actually had a little hiccup upon cranking it over. But not again. Battery is out of juice, so there’s the possibility of compromised fuel pressure, maybe? Before I give up, I’m gonna charge and crank it with a hot charge. But if that doesn’t do it, I’m hauling it to a pro. I may be failing, but I’m absolutely flailing!

     Thread Starter
 

9/02/2018 12:58 PM  #12


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Shade tree trick (prolly well known)  spray with starting fluid to verify you HAVE spark. If STILL nothing it must be electrical.
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

9/02/2018 2:52 PM  #13


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Another obvious but you wouldn't think item.  Change out the coil wire to the distributor.  I have seen one go completely bad in my years.   


If multiple things can go wrong, the one that will go wrong will be the one that causes the most damage.
 

9/02/2018 4:23 PM  #14


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

A coil can be easily tested with an Ohm meter.  Check primary winding by reading resistance (Ohms) between the two terminals (+ and -) on the coil.  It should show somewhere around 0.4-2.0 Ohms.  If its infinite, or off the gauge the primary winding has a break in it.  Check the secondary winding by reading resistance between the + terminal and the coil to distributor wire post.  It should have somewhere around 6,000-10,000 Ohms.  If its infinite there's a break in the secondary winding.  If it checks out then the coil is fine.

You can check the resistance on the coil to distributor wire too, as well as continuity.  If resistance is sky high, or there's no continuity the wire is bad.  You can also crank test it with a tester between the coil and the wire and look for spark.  Just be sure to hold that tester with something insulated.  These cars throw some serious voltage, even stock (around 45,000 volts) and they can really zap you pretty good.  Obviously something someone with a heart condition or pacemaker should ever do. 

When troubleshooting these cars the knowledge of how to use a good multimeter is essential.  They are too costly and complex to just start changing parts and hope something works.  These systems are simple by today's standards, but still considerably more complex than a typical carbureted engine.  Several things must happen before the computer will command spark, so you have to work your way back through those.  Things like swapping the TFI or PIP are just guesses based on experiences we've all had.  In the end, trying to troubleshoot an electrical problem via the internet is kind of like trying to give you a haircut over the phone. 

Oh, and I almost forgot, you can test if the issue is the computer by pulling the inline spout connector.  If you get spark without it then the computer is bad.  Pulling that connector disconnects the computer from the system so you can set base timing.  At that point it is just running off the distributor (no computer input into timing).  If it still doesn't have spark then the issue is not the computer. 

 

9/02/2018 5:25 PM  #15


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Haircut over the phone... man is that ever on the mark! Thanks for the specifics... we’ll check each.

     Thread Starter
 

9/02/2018 6:57 PM  #16


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Lance,
Go back to the coil.  From the pic you provided, it looks like you're running the fox coil.  Check the two wire electrical plug that plugs into the coil.  Sometimes when removing that thing, a simple tug on the wire(s) can pull the wire off the connector itself.  It may look to be ok but, really take a closer look at both wires to ensure they remain attached to the connector.....

Also, check the ground for the ecm....

Last, ask Pop what, if anything, was the last thing he did to the car before experiencing this no spark situation....

 

 

9/02/2018 10:14 PM  #17


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

josh-kebob wrote:

Lance,
Go back to the coil.  From the pic you provided, it looks like you're running the fox coil.  Check the two wire electrical plug that plugs into the coil.  Sometimes when removing that thing, a simple tug on the wire(s) can pull the wire off the connector itself.  It may look to be ok but, really take a closer look at both wires to ensure they remain attached to the connector.....

Also, check the ground for the ecm....

Last, ask Pop what, if anything, was the last thing he did to the car before experiencing this no spark situation....

 

That's a good call on the coil plug.  I've seen a ton of them over the years where guys removed the connector body and are just running the individual spade connectors directly on the coil terminals because of this. 

 

9/03/2018 6:10 AM  #18


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

TKOPerformance wrote:

josh-kebob wrote:

Lance,
Go back to the coil.  From the pic you provided, it looks like you're running the fox coil.  Check the two wire electrical plug that plugs into the coil.  Sometimes when removing that thing, a simple tug on the wire(s) can pull the wire off the connector itself.  It may look to be ok but, really take a closer look at both wires to ensure they remain attached to the connector.....

Also, check the ground for the ecm....

Last, ask Pop what, if anything, was the last thing he did to the car before experiencing this no spark situation....

 

That's a good call on the coil plug.  I've seen a ton of them over the years where guys removed the connector body and are just running the individual spade connectors directly on the coil terminals because of this. 

Glad you approve.......

 

9/03/2018 2:18 PM  #19


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Thank you a million times over! We have the beast up and running. Here is the de-brief for those that are curious.

Car lost spark way back in May. First thing Pops did was to replace the coil without testing much. In the absence of diagnostic help, he then traced through the wiring schematic and decided, without any further testing, that the TFI was the next most likely problem and replaced that. The car sat for over three months until I arrived. You taught me about the PIP at which point we pulled the distributor and replaced that. Still no spark. You helped me diagnose that it was not the computer. You helped me understand that the newer coil had proper resistance on the front end, but was open on the back end. We acquired a second new coil yesterday. Still no evidence of spark. Bummer.

As an afterthought, you mentioned “that one time” when the spade connectors failed to connect with the coil, despite the plug being in place. I dreamed about that most of the night.

So first thing this morning, I forcefully pressed the metal spades within the plastic connector into connection and Hallelujah!!! We had spark. Faulty connection of harness to coil. Then, it was a matter of correctly orienting the gear and rotor within the distributor, and timing appropriately. She’s running as good as she ever has!

Spent a few hours putting interior back together, (glove box, AC and console), and called it a winning day. Without the hint about the spade connectors failing to mate, we’d have been towing it to a pro who wanted nothing to do with an electrical bugaboo. So again, I can’t thank you each enough for salvaging our weekend!

I love you guys!

Lance

     Thread Starter
 

9/03/2018 3:38 PM  #20


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

So was it a flat top or crew cut you ended up with

Successful haircut over the phone!  josh-kebob nailed it with that coil connector.

Make sure you time the engine without the inline spout connector in place.  You can monkey with the base timing and get a little more power out of it.  You have to be vigilant for pining though because this system does not use a knock sensor.  I would start around 10 degrees and go up from there in 2 degree increments until you get pining under high load heavy acceleration (top gear pull up a hill at low RPM).  Then back it off 2 degrees.

I'd also seriously consider swapping that TFI module for an aftermarket one.  The reason the stock ones fail so often is because they have no dwell control, so they operate at like 99% dwell all the time, which creates a lot of heat.  I actually have a Dyna Module from Davis Unified Ignition for an automatic trans application (they're different manual vs. auto).  Can't remember what trans you have, but if you're interested shoot me a PM. 

 

9/03/2018 4:48 PM  #21


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Glad to assist with your EFI no spark problem.........process of elimination and sometimes the blind squirrel finds a nut!   
Also, I'm not very good giving haircuts either.........now, tell Pop's to go drive that thing before the snow starts falling..

 

9/03/2018 4:51 PM  #22


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

The difference beween a good hair cut and a bad one is about two weeks!


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

9/03/2018 6:26 PM  #23


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

How bad can it be?  Its hair; it'll grow back.  It hasn't yet, but I remain hopeful...

 

9/04/2018 8:17 AM  #24


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

TKOPerformance wrote:

How bad can it be?  Its hair; it'll grow back.  It hasn't yet, but I remain hopeful...

 
It does grow back. Ears, nose, eyebrows maybe......isn’t that where you wanted it!!


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

9/04/2018 4:50 PM  #25


Re: No spark on an EFI swap. A weekend visit. Perhaps a list to chase?

Bolted to Floor wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

How bad can it be?  Its hair; it'll grow back.  It hasn't yet, but I remain hopeful...

 
It does grow back. Ears, nose, eyebrows maybe......isn’t that where you wanted it!!

No!  And not on the back either!!!!!!

 

Board footera


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