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7/02/2019 6:09 PM  #1


65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Ive read most all of your replys and understand that the big tire store dont understand. Now becauce they told me they had one older emploee that knew how to do them and hes out sick I got a free toe ajustment. 
they said that they would have to take all the shimms out of the front and add them to the rear and likely have to install a longer bolts just to get 3.5+ camber. I dont like the sounds of that so I can do the shelby drop and move on
My new question is without the drop would ajustable lower control ame rods be a good thing to buy or does the drop eleminate that need. I am so confused now and just want to drive the car. Not race it. 
These are my specs they gave me as to what it is now.
Left       camber       right
+0.3                              -0.4
+0.1      caster              -0.5
0.23         toe                0.22

I am trying to find someone in Portland Ore that does this 

 


Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
 

7/02/2019 6:30 PM  #2


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

I did NOT need longer bolts to get "the most caster you can"! Watch out for these folks who will tell you almost anything to get in your wallet.
I have discovered many of the computerized alignments will NOT allow the tech to change/adjust specs.(like Pep Boyz machines) They SAID they could do it butt not!
Whether you do the "Shelby drop" or not.....alignment specs are the same.
The drop AND the custom alignment specs truely make a big difference in how the car drives/handles.
Have you installed a one piece export brace and the Monte Carlo bar? This with the drop and new specs made mine handle like a much newer car.
A lot of the guys on here do their own alignment and swear it ain't that hard.
6sally6
PS...........Private message Ron68 (who lives in Wash state ) he may know of someone in PNW close by.

Last edited by 6sally6 (7/03/2019 10:50 AM)


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

7/02/2019 8:21 PM  #3


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

There seems to be some confusion on alignment specs - caster versus camber.  If you haven't already looked, see the specs from Daze Cars  https://dazecars.com/dazed/drop.html   You don't want +3.5 degrees camber.  0 to -.5 is good.  What you would like but may not reach is +3.5 degrees caster.  You gain caster by shifting the upper control arms towards the REAR of the car - not forwards.  This means that you need to add shims to the front of the upper control arm but it is a dance with the 65/66 because as you do this you will be changing the camber as well.  The fact that they didn't even know where to add or remove shims means you need to find another shop or wait for the person who knows how to do it to come back.

Some other things that will help gain caster are shifting the upper control arm shafts by one full turn of the pivot nuts.  If done properly you will move the UCA back 1/8" which helps.  You can also investigate adjustable strut rods which are used to pull the LCA forward - which gives you more caster.  This gives you more control of caster without as much influence on camber.  But some don't like the harshness that the adjustable strut rods may introduce.  As you introduce caster the wheel tends to move forward which can introduce a rub on the front lower corner of the fender if you are also trying to run wider tires.

At this point I question the validity of the as-found values they provided.  I'm sure you will get lots of advice on desired settings but once again it is a dance between centering feel, crowned road performance, tire wear, etc.  A little more negative camber will help it corner more aggressively but eat tires more quickly, for example.  The Daze specs are a good starting point - conservative but still allowing you to take advantage of the benefits of the 1" drop.

But - I should have asked - was this a 1" drop with lowering springs or are you referring to the 1" Shelby/Arning drop?

Here is a discussion about 65/66 alignment that shows what you have to do with shims and also discusses a few items above.  https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/355996-65-66-shims-caster-adjustment.html

Good luck - wish I knew of a shop in your area.

 

7/03/2019 5:25 AM  #4


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Alignment needs to be done in the following order: caster, camber, toe.  Caster adjustment will always affect camber, so if you adjust it backwards you chase your tail. 

You will never achieve 3.5 degrees of positive caster with the upper control arm in the stock location and non-adjustable strut rods.  The amount of shims required would be dangerous.  The Shelby/Arning drop is going to help this situation, because it moves the UCAs rearward as well as down.  I had no trouble hitting 3.5 degrees positive with the Sleby/Arning drop and adjustable strut rods (stock for '67-up).  There are retrofit adjustable strut rods that maintain a rubber bushing instead of a hard style joint, which should mitigate the harshness of which people often complain with the heim joint/hard mount type adjustable strut rods. 

Then you can set camber at 0-0.5 degrees negative, which shouldn't require but a shim or two for the UCAs.

Then center the centerlink in the steering (NOT the steering wheel) and set your toe at 1/8" toe in.  If this puts the wheel off center just reclock it. 

I'm also going to add that if the car was dropped with 1" shorter springs this changes how much adjustment you will have because lowering the front end like that adds a ton of positive camber (not good) and makes alignment even harder.  I'd advise going back to a stock height spring and doing the Shelby/Arning drop instead.  You won't get a full 1" drop, more like 5/8", but the car will handle loads better. 

 

7/03/2019 9:37 AM  #5


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

RUN away from that shop. You have to add shims to the FRONT UCA bolts to add positive caster.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

7/03/2019 6:32 PM  #6


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

First let me thank everyone for my headach. I have the Shelby drop ordered and some ajustable strut rods since my stock ones needed to be replaced. Everything else is new.  I do have 620 drop springs and have not cut them. I dont think I can go much lower without rub, having bought 3.5"BS wheels and 225x 60x 15 tires. I will add a 1/2" spring busing to the top to help make up for the drop springs if need be. I can set the camber myself, thats not hard.  I can add a degree maybe with the strut rods and then I would start to have tire issues.I  just wanting to know about how mush shim is needed with stock UCA after the drop. If I can get close then I could go back and have them tell me where I am at. because I feel safer doing all this myself now. I mite be able to read the camber too.
One more question today.
Do you need to  redo the Camber after you do the Caster?
 I read the ride heights from other people and they all do the drop and drop springs and cut them.  then I read this from TKO
I'm also going to add that if the car was dropped with 1" shorter springs this changes how much adjustment you will have because lowering the front end like that adds a ton of positive camber (not good) and makes alignment even harder.  I'd advise going back to a stock height spring and doing the Shelby/Arning drop instead.  You won't get a full 1" drop, more like 5/8", but the car will handle loads better
Chris

Last edited by Cab4word67 (7/03/2019 6:36 PM)


Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
     Thread Starter
 

7/04/2019 6:38 AM  #7


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Adjusting the caster will change the camber.  When you shim the UCA you are moving its mounting point outward, which is increasing negative camber.  The problem with the way the '65-'66 cars are done is that you have to compromise between caster and camber, and are not going to be able to get optimum settings on both.  Mostly, caster is going to suffer so you have proper camber.  Unfortunately this is just how these cars were designed.  In the '60s the emphasis was on easy steering, not straight tracking.  0 degrees of caster, or negative caster was not seen as a bad thing.  Today road feel is important, and every car has power steering, so a lot of caster isn't a problem from the standpoint of increased steering effort.  Modern cars run at least 3 degrees of positive caster, and many run 5 or more.

The Shelby drop helps caster by moving the UCA rearward by about 1/8" as well as lowering it by 1".  The 1/8" rearward move adds about 2 degrees of positive caster because you are changing the angle of spindle inclination directly.  If the strut rods are non-adjustable further caster adjustment would then need to be made with shims, and you are in a better place than stock, but still back to the dance between caster and camber.  Adjustable strut rods allow you to further change the angle of spindle inclination by moving the LCA forward.  This will get you another 1.5-2 degrees of positive caster, and allow you to hit 3.5 degrees positive without the need to shim the UCA at all.

Once the caster is set, and I would advise doing that without any shims on the UCA.  You then can set the camber by shimming the UCA as needed.  The goal is 0-0.5 degrees negative camber (assuming the Shelby/Arning drop), which shouldn't require much shimming and you should be able to shim the UCA evenly.  Without the drop you want more like 1.5 degrees negative.  More would be better, but will place the balljoints near bind, wearing them out quickly and creating a dangerous situation. 

As far as how many shims or their thickness, no real way to tell.  These cars were built with tremendous tolerance variation.  Even new that question wouldn't get a reliable answer.  Add 50 years of wear and tear, wrecks, backyard "mechanic" work, etc. and its even worse.  The adjustments exist mostly to correct for these things.  The idea of a performance alignment wasn't really even on Ford's radar, which is why there is so little adjustment in the stock system. 

The issue with lowering springs is that they lower the front of the car by pulling the suspension up into the body.  In so doing you change the static angle of the UCA, shorten its effectvie static length, and the top of the tire tilts inward (negative camber), which is good from a performance standpoint; to a point.  A 1" drop can likely be corrected with shims and get you back to an acceptable degree of negative camber.  The thing to remember is that you must not run more than 1.5 degrees of negative camber or you will start binding the ball joints and wearing them out.  People sometimes talk about Shelby having run more than that on his race cars, but they forget two things.  One, these were race cars.  Parts only needed to last one race.  Two, they put the ball joints in a mill and relived the areas that would bind.  This work was hidden by the dust boot so the tech inspectors were none the wiser and the parts were consdiered "stock".  This also weakened the ball joints to a degree, and shouldn't be used on the street. 

The Shelby drop has two benefits.  First, you are lowering the front of the car by dropping the body down onto the suspension.  Now, this to a lesser degree still induces stzatic negative camber, because you are lowering the rear of the UCA and changing its static angle, and in effect shortening its length at static ride heihgt, which is going to tilt the tire inward at the top, BUT its not to the same degree as a lowering spring because the 1" UCA drop isn't the same as a 1" shorter spring.  The stock configuration is a right triangle formed by the shock tower, the spring, and the UCA from its mounting point on the shock tower to the spring.  Both a lowering spring and the Shelby/Arning drop change the triangle from right to scalene (three different angles, none of them a right angle).  The difference is in the way they effect that change.  The lowering spring removes length from what was the hypotenuse of the right triangle, whereas the Shelby/Arning drop adds length to what was the long leg of the right triangle.  Shortening the longest side has more of an impact than lengthening the second longest side.  So the Shelby/Arning drop lowers the front end less, but also doesn't induce as much negative camber.

AND, that's not the whole story, but only a snippet.  Suspensions don't exist in a vacuum with no movement.  Where the Shelby/Arning drop really outshines the shorter spring is when the suspension starts to compress as in cornering.  The shorter spring has made the front end sit lower, but its still tied to the stock suspension geometry, which under compression has a lot of camber gain.  That is, the tire tends to start tilting outwards at the top when the suspension compresses, so your static setting of say 1 degree negative quickly becomes 0, and then starts going positive.  What camber is really measuring is the contact patch of the tire on the road.  Obviously the bigger the patch the better the handling.  The goal is to have 0 camber under compression in a corner.  In a suspension that gains camber you set it with some static negative camber so that under compression it gets to zero.  With the stock setup you simply cannot dial in enough static negative camber to do this.  It gains too much camber under compression and there isn't enough adjustment.  What the Shelby/Arning drop really does is change the rate of camber gain in the suspension, making it gain FAR less camber under compression.  This requires a static setting that is both obtainable and not so far negative that it wears the outside edges off the front tires. 

The difference in operation is quite noticeable.  I've run my car both ways.  I got acceptable handling from maxing caster and going to 1.5 degrees of negative camber on stock geometry.  The handling with the Shelby/Arning drop and only 0.5 degrees of negative camber is substantially better.  Its without doubt the best change you can make to the suspension of your car.

As far as alignment goes, I would advise just learning to do it yourself.  I bought some turntables and the Fastrax system for about $300.  Alignments typically cost $90 here, so in a couple of alignments on my fleet of vehicles I paid for the setup.  I also know I have the specs I want, and can easily change parts now without worry about tire wear or a trip to an alignment shop because I can just do it in my garage. 
 

Last edited by TKOPerformance (7/08/2019 4:57 AM)

 

7/04/2019 11:03 AM  #8


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

TKOPerformance wrote:

As far as alignment goes, I would advise just learning to do it yourself.  I bought some turntables and the Fastrax system for about $300.  Alignments typically cost $90 here, so in a couple of alignments on my fleet of vehicles I paid for the setup.  I also know I have the specs I want, and can easily change parts now without worry about tire wear or a trip to an alignment shop because I can just do it in my garage. 
 

 
Expensive tools aren't needed for an accurate alignment. A $50 digital level and some string will get you dead nuts on.

Search for member Huskinano's thread on diy alignment. If I can do it, anyone can.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

7/04/2019 11:13 AM  #9


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

I've done it that way too, but ultimately determined that my time was worth more than my money.  The tools aren't strictly necessary, but they do greatly accelerate the process.

I will say, if you get the Fastrax don't bother with the toe setup.  A tape measure works far better than their setup.  Definitely not worth the added cost. 

 

7/04/2019 1:58 PM  #10


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

rpm wrote:

TKOPerformance wrote:

As far as alignment goes, I would advise just learning to do it yourself.  I bought some turntables and the Fastrax system for about $300.  Alignments typically cost $90 here, so in a couple of alignments on my fleet of vehicles I paid for the setup.  I also know I have the specs I want, and can easily change parts now without worry about tire wear or a trip to an alignment shop because I can just do it in my garage. 
 

 
Expensive tools aren't needed for an accurate alignment. A $50 digital level and some string will get you dead nuts on.

Search for member Huskinano's thread on diy alignment. If I can do it, anyone can.

I purchased one of Longacre's tools to align my Porsche years ago. Money well spent as I have aligned the Porsche twice and the mustang every time I have the front apart. I made my own toe plates for use with a tape measurer. Alignment is easy and fun if you have the time. You can also experiment and set it to any spec you want. As RPM said, it aint hard if I can do it. 
 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

7/04/2019 4:07 PM  #11


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

what do you all think of this from Amozon?Tenhulzen Auto 3300 2-Wheel Alignment System All-in-one Tool (Camber/Caster/Toe Plates)


Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
     Thread Starter
 

7/05/2019 4:51 AM  #12


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

I'm not a fan of the two point wheel mounting.  If the mount isn't perpendicular to the wheel face your readings are going to be off.  To me this looks like a set of toe plates that are also able to read camber, and by proxy caster.  Toe plates are the least useful tool, and not worth spending any money on.  Toe is by far the easiest alignment setting to adjust.  I simply use a tape measure and measure from tread block to tread block on the tires.  A tool like this may be useful on a race car with slicks where you can't do that because there is no tread, but on a street car IMO you are paying for a lackluster caster/camber gauge and a premium toe measuring system when you should be buying the exact opposite.

Whatever you end up buying you will still need to get a set of turntables or make something to allow the wheels to be turned with ease.  Caster is measured by interpolation of camber readings from the wheel turned in and then turned out.  With the Fastrax gauge you simply set the gauge to read caster and there's no math involved. 

This is the system I use:

https://www.amazon.com/Specialty-Products-Company-91000-FasTrax/dp/B000PG6OW2/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=fastrax&qid=1562323149&s=gateway&sr=8-1

You will need these adapters:

https://www.amazon.com/Specialty-Products-Company-91030-FasTrax/dp/B000SICHY6/ref=sr_1_9?keywords=fastrax&qid=1562323235&s=gateway&sr=8-9

And I use these turn plates:

https://www.amazon.com/QuickTrick-Turnplates-Set-of-2/dp/B01HHA58K2/ref=sxbs_sxwds-stvp?keywords=quick+trick&pd_rd_i=B01HHA58K2&pd_rd_r=083f4fd9-600e-470f-9498-0a2bf6497b6e&pd_rd_w=jIhGP&pd_rd_wg=qsn2j&pf_rd_p=a6d018ad-f20b-46c9-8920-433972c7d9b7&pf_rd_r=XBKX7JK2CFK6BN90AWST&qid=1562323566&s=automotive

The turn plates went up in price a good bit since I bought them, but are still one of the cheaper options out there and they work very well.  The only other thing you'll need is a tape measure for toe.  I find that learning to do your own alignments is like learning most things automotive previously regarded as a black art.  It brings you closer to truly understanding how a vehicle works and removes the need to trust other people who are often of questionable knowledge in the first place. 

 

7/05/2019 8:25 AM  #13


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

My toe plates consist of 2 thin pieces of steel with grease between them. I've heard of guys using plastic for sale signs. No need to break the bank.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

7/05/2019 9:41 AM  #14


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Thank you all again. I will get the fast track ordered today. That is a $50-$60 savings over the Lester schwab tire store deal. I have learned everything else in my life from doing it my self so this is just one more thing in my box of nolage of 65 years. You all are the best. And as soon as I can figure out how to post my rides I will.
Thanks again. I will now wait for parts to arive 


Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
     Thread Starter
 

7/07/2019 10:28 AM  #15


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Instead of buying the Fastrack gauge set up at this time, I made my own with a old phone, app and some wood. I tested it with the specs i recived from the tire store and it comes up the same. So for now I will run with it. Shelby drop kit arived yesterday so off to work I go. 


Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
     Thread Starter
 

7/07/2019 3:45 PM  #16


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

That's a slick idea. 


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

7/07/2019 7:07 PM  #17


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

See... low buck can work.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

7/08/2019 12:33 AM  #18


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Great write up, TKO, but a nit to pick is that inward tilt at the top of the tire is negative camber. Regarding DIY and cheap, I've got that covered. I picked up a digital alignment box that has a magnetic base/sensor that's connected to it via a cord off of ebay for $20.00, so that has camber/caster covered. For toe I used two pieces of 3/4" square steel tubing just a bit larger in diameter than my front tires, drilled to slip over a wheel stud (I still have 4 lug). Using those bars in place of my wheels/tires along with four plumb bobs and two tape measures, that covers the toe settings.

First I level the car fore/aft and crosswise with liquid levels and blocks. I double-check this with the digital gauge. I then jack up the front end, remove the tires, add blocks under the outer edge of the lower control arm and lower the car down, locating the center of my hubs where they would be if the car was on the ground and on it's wheels. Now I add enough weight to the car to bring the front end down to where it would be if the car was on the ground and on it's wheels (250 lbs.).

Next I bolt the two bars on to the rotors and snug them in place with a wheel nut. Now that the body and hubs are where where I want them I pull my dust caps, stick on the base/sensor for the alignment gauge on the hub and set camber/caster for each side. I use the leverage of the toe bars to turn the wheels straight and 20 degrees out/in for camber, and a protractor laid on the floor to .align the toe bar with for those angles.

Once I have camber/caster set and double checked, I hand the plumb bobs (I have notches at the outer edges of the bars to indicate tire diameter) and lay my tapes, squaring them up. I then set the steering wheel ahead and dial in toe to 0 on both sides, then in 1/16" each. My camber/caster settings are (L/R):

Camber: -.2 / -.2
Caster: +2.8 / +3.0

Straight as an arrow, wheel snaps back to center nicely and good turn-in settings for a manual steering setup (which I have). Anything over +3 on caster with manual steering and it starts to get heavy with turn-in on corners.

Last edited by 351MooseStang (7/08/2019 12:35 AM)

 

7/08/2019 4:57 AM  #19


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Thanks 351MooseStang, I made the appropriate corrections. 

 

7/14/2019 3:12 PM  #20


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Ok everyone, I did the shelby drop and alined the car by myself for the first time. WOW does it drive diferent. This is a good thing. This is what I got with alot of shims in the front, and the 1" drop springs
Camber  Caster
L .1         2.5
R .2         3.0
I now have tire rub with the extra 5/8" drop for the Shelby drop. so I want to add the 1/2'' spring seats and get back some of what TKO said (tilts inward negative camber) I lost with the drop springs. Then I will re aline and enjoy the drive.  Unless there is another sluition like KYB gas a just shocks, But I thing the spring seats are the best. That will cut down on alot of the shims I think. 


Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
     Thread Starter
 

7/14/2019 4:04 PM  #21


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Cab4word67 wrote:

Ok everyone, I did the shelby drop and alined the car by myself for the first time. WOW does it drive diferent. This is a good thing. This is what I got with alot of shims in the front, and the 1" drop springs
Camber  Caster
L .1         2.5
R .2         3.0
I now have tire rub with the extra 5/8" drop for the Shelby drop. so I want to add the 1/2'' spring seats and get back some of what TKO said (tilts inward negative camber) I lost with the drop springs. Then I will re aline and enjoy the drive.  Unless there is another sluition like KYB gas a just shocks, But I thing the spring seats are the best. That will cut down on alot of the shims I think. 

You could always roll the fender lips.  Worked for me.
 


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

7/14/2019 5:14 PM  #22


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

lowercasesteve wrote:

You could always roll the fender lips.  Worked for me.

Absolutely a good modification. This horizontal fender lips are only good for chewing up tires.
 


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

7/14/2019 5:39 PM  #23


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

thanks Bob. Did you read the part about my 3.5" BS with 225x60x15s. Its tight up there now that the strut rods pulling the tire forward. I dont have a lot of rub/scuff just when the front hits a dip or the dreadful speed humps there a problem. Thought about KYBs in front first and some fender messaging. Last resort is to add spring isulators of 3/8"
Dont have this issue whit the truck

Last edited by Cab4word67 (7/14/2019 5:40 PM)


Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
     Thread Starter
 

7/14/2019 6:44 PM  #24


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

1/2" thick spring isolators and roll the fender lip. That'll do the trick!
Last set of tires I bought I went with the 225-65-15 to gain a little height and just a scoosh more clarance on the tire width. No scrub probs (on the front) at tall.
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

7/14/2019 7:51 PM  #25


Re: 65 with 1" drop needs Alinment

Thanks guys


Slammed Big Blue, ran over the varmints that messed with the Stang. Now all is good in the NW
     Thread Starter
 

Board footera


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