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8/06/2019 6:28 AM  #1


Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Now I have gotten the info from 6sally6 about how to do it .. but I wanted to start a thread about actually doing it ..

My initial timing is 12-14 somewhere in that range . Here were my results from timing test ... makes no sense that there is no difference with vaccines advance hooked up .. its hooked up to the timed vacuum port.
Numbers to the left are with vacuum and to the right are without vacuum ..

Last edited by Gaba (8/08/2019 7:44 AM)


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
 

8/06/2019 8:19 AM  #2


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

It makes sense if your vacuum can is bad or if your tubing has a hole in it or if the port in the carb is clogged.  Apply vacuum directly to the tube (can't say how but your mouth or a vacuum pump will work) and watch the timing.  It should move.  If it doesn't the can may be bad or the timing plate in the distributor could be locked up.  If you can't hold vacuum in the line you know the line is bad or that they diaphragm in the can has a hole in it.

Alternatively you could, at idle, connect your hose directly to the manifold vacuum port on the carb.   Again, if that doesn't work, something is amiss  in the distributor.  Your curve is a little slow but not too bad.  You may want to go up to 4000 RPM to see if it climbs from there.  If it holds at 34 degrees, it looks like you are getting 20 mechanical, which is good.  Lighter springs will bring it in faster but there is a point where it is too fast so don't get too crazy with your first move.

 

8/06/2019 11:13 AM  #3


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Good advice (as usual!)

Light springs should bring it in sooner..........Be sure and read what numbers are stamped on the plate "inside" the distrib. (that will determine the mechanical advance part of the equation)
Good idea to start a  thread notating your work!!  Lotsa pics, I hope
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

8/06/2019 12:19 PM  #4


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

The diaphram in the vacuum canister could be bad, like mine, and require replacement. With the distributor cap removed, you should see the vacuum can arm move when vacuum is applied.

Some of the vacuum cans are adjustable with a 3/32 allen wrench thru the vacuum hole.

For whatever reason, a pinging issue I had was solved when I switched the vacuum source from a timed to a direct source, as per this article:

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/additional-tech/1601-everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-vacuum-advance-and-ignition-timing/


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

8/06/2019 12:44 PM  #5


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Confirming that the vacuum canister is bad. I tried sucking , and it sucked air through and through. That right there will also cause my over heating ..  vacuum leak =lean= heating up

I just installed this canister recently (like 6 months ago)

Where do I buy a good one?


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

8/06/2019 2:34 PM  #6


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

No clue, I got mine from my good brother. It might depend of the distributor. Where does anyone find good parts these days?


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

8/06/2019 3:19 PM  #7


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Vacuum advance test:
Using a NEW, clean hose, suck a vacuum on the can and then stick the hose on the end of your tongue. You can feel if it is holding vacuum, or not. If it leaks out, replace the can.
Of course, a vacuum pump and gauge will work for this test, but way too high tech for my ways.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

8/06/2019 3:26 PM  #8


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

MS wrote:

Vacuum advance test:
Using a NEW, clean hose, suck a vacuum on the can and then stick the hose on the end of your tongue. You can feel if it is holding vacuum, or not. If it leaks out, replace the can.
Of course, a vacuum pump and gauge will work for this test, but way too high tech for my ways.

Oh yeah thats what I did. and mine just sucked air all the way through no vaccum held at all! the inside of the distributor smelt of oil (that the engine was trying to suck through the vacuum canister)


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

8/06/2019 4:07 PM  #9


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Need more info on the engine.  Compression ratio, cylinder heads, carb or EFI, etc.

Lighter springs will bring what advance you have in sooner, but engine specifics will give me an idea of how much timing it should need.  Generally the higher performance everything is the less timing it needs, the lower performance the more.  Timing required is basically a measure of the efficiency of the engine design. 

 

8/06/2019 4:28 PM  #10


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Distributor on the table ready to be worked on. Vacuum advance canister is bad!


Canister off (watch for that C clip) and now reluctor marked with a green dot for orientation and coming off


Two more screws holding the bottom plate and the electronic assembly on, one screw visible here ..


So what do I find :

My distributor has two different springs
It is set to 16L and the other side seems to be 21L ??? Don’t know for sure as it’s mis stamped





My springs in the kit seem a bit too small..? I know it’s not about the size but the spring coefficient . But will my kit be ok to use on my distributor? There another one I can look for ?


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

8/06/2019 4:30 PM  #11


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

TKOPerformance wrote:

Need more info on the engine.  Compression ratio, cylinder heads, carb or EFI, etc.

Lighter springs will bring what advance you have in sooner, but engine specifics will give me an idea of how much timing it should need.  Generally the higher performance everything is the less timing it needs, the lower performance the more.  Timing required is basically a measure of the efficiency of the engine design. 

TKO : heads stock for a 69 302 , compression ratio unknown, carb . Cam:: closer to a hipo cam.. this engine is not built by me.


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

8/06/2019 5:01 PM  #12


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Try Rock Auto under ignition for distributor that you are using.
I believe 1976 was year duraspark with female distributor cap.
1978 duraspark had male distributor cap.

I always referenced parts to ‘78 Granada w/ 302 for my distributor.
When I converted to duraspark, I went with ACCEL Blueprint Distributor.
It is a remanufactured original w/ adjustable vacuum advance like RPM mentioned.

vacuum leak = not enough advance (timing retarded) = overheating = frustration 🤪

Last edited by Nos681 (8/06/2019 5:08 PM)

 

8/06/2019 5:13 PM  #13


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Decide which slot you want to use and if necessary remove the upper advance shaft retaining clip and springs so you can lift and rotate the shaft in to the proper position. If ordering a distributor from a parts store ask for one for a 1975 elite with a 460 4v engine. You will be more likely to get the lower number advance slot like a 10L or 13L rather than the 18 or 21L's. If you have a distributor with the larger numbered slots limit rotation via welding the slot smaller or placing a bushing around the pin to limit total shaft rotation.



        To figure approximate slot width for a given advance figure Multiply the number of desired centrifugal degrees by .013" then add .150" to account for the width of the stop pin.

        8L slot = 16 degrees centrifugal advance = .358”
        9L slot = 18 degrees centrifugal advance = .384”
        10L slot = 20 degrees centrifugal advance = .410”
        11L slot = 22 degrees centrifugal advance = .436”
        12L slot = 24 degrees centrifugal advance = .462”
        13L slot = 26 degrees centrifugal advance = .488”
        14L slot = 28 degrees centrifugal advance = .514”

        Step 6
        install the springs from the recurve kit and bend the tabs to keep tension on both springs so the advance shaft returns to its idle position



        Step 7
        Reassemble in the reverse order. Breaker plate, Reluctor, Vac advance dashpot and return the little clips to their proper place.



        Place the reluctor back on the shaft in its original position and align the roll pin slot in the reluctor with the roll pin slot on the upper distributor shaft. Carefully place the roll pin into place after fully seating reluctor on shaft and gently push it back into place with a hammer and a small punch. The 1/2 slots in both the reluctor and in the shaft together make a round hole for the roll pin.

        So what about Vacuum Advance?



        Vacuum Advance
        Under conditions of light or closed throttle, the volumetric efficiency of an engine is quite poor, and cylinder filling is affected to the extent that the effective compression ratio is much lower than the static or calculated compression ratio. In these circumstances the mixture will burn much more slowly than with a fully filled cylinder and the flame front will reach the piston quite late. This can dramatically cut the overall efficiency of the engine and its economy. Under these conditions the engine will tolerate and indeed benefit from advancing the timing by up to 15 degrees over its normal setting.
        The device that usually performs this trick is called the vacuum advance device. The way this works is to exploit the partial vacuum that is present in the inlet manifold when the throttle is closed or partly closed. A tube is connected from the manifold to a sealed diaphragm in the distributor, which in turn is connected to the distributors base plate. The suction deflects the diaphragm which turns the base plate against the direction of rotation of the distributor thereby advancing the timing, this gives much better throttle response on part throttle, and far better economy.
        Many people who tune engines disconnect the vacuum advance mechanism, and indeed on some distributors it is very hit and miss in operation and can cause anomalies in the timing. All in all however for a road engine, the vacuum advance retard should be retained if it is possible to do so (not always easy with sidedraught carbs). This will have a dramatic affect on economy and driveability especially on small throttle openings and when 'off-cam'.

        Most Ford distributors include a vacuum advance mechanism. This consists of a diaphragm vacuum canister, an arm from the canister to the breaker plate, and a hose connected to an engine vacuum source. The purpose of this mechanism is to provide spark advance when the engine is not spinning fast enough to create the centrifugal advance talked about earlier. In other words this is an engine-load dependent advance. This would be a typical situation when climbing a steep hill, or driving at low rpms, light throttle, conditions. In these conditions there is high engine vacuum, so the vacuum signal applied to the diaphragm in the canister, via the hose, will cause a 'pull' effect on the arm, which moves the breaker plate and results in a timing advance. During full throttle conditions there is very little engine vacuum, and thus the vacuum advance does not contribute to total advance.

        Vacuum advance is tricky to tune because there is no direct measurement like total. In fact, the reason you must measure initial and total timing with the vacuum hose disconnected is because when the engine is in neutral there no load, thus the vacuum is high, and if the hose were connected you'd see as high as 60 degrees advance and think something is really wrong! The only way to tune vacuum advance is on the road, by feel, and AFTER the initial and total are adjusted.

        In short, vacuum advance was developed to optimize fuel economy and reduce emissions. It is not a bad thing to have on a car which sees a lot of street driving, and in such conditions the engine will perform better with it properly adjusted. However many factory and aftermarket performance distributors do not even come with a vacuum advance. The reason is simply because race cars do not spend much time at part throttle.

        Setting Vacuum Advance:



        Vacuum advance canisters are usually adjustable with a 3/32-in. allen wrench, as shown here. The small screw inside the housing adjusts the tension on the diaphragm spring. If you detect knocking and loss of power, back the screw out (counterclockwise) to decrease advance. If the engine pops and surges, tighten up the screw to increase advance.

        Note:When checking initial and total advance, always disconnect the vacuum advance hose. Otherwise you will get very high timing readings.

        Tuning Vacuum Advance
        The last step, after the total advance curve is set, is to dial in the vacuum advance if you have one. There should be a vacuum line connected from the carb, or the manifold, to the vacuum canister. There are two types of vacuum sources that you should be aware of. One type is known as "full" vacuum or "manifold" vacuum. This is a direct connection to the manifold, and if the hose is connected to this port you will get vacuum in the line at idle. The other port is a "timed" port, which only yields a vacuum above a certain rpm. At idle the line will have no vacuum. Most carburetors have both ports. On Holley's the timed is above the throttle blades, and the "full" is below, near the base. On Carter/Edelbrock carbs, the timed port is on the passenger side and the full is on the driver's side. The easiest way to confirm what port you have is to hook up a vacuum a gauge and check for vacuum at idle. The preferred vacuum source is the timed source. This way there is no effect on the initial timing setting.


        Remember vacuum advance is load dependent, so you cannot check it with a timing light with the car in neutral. The best way to set vacuum advance is by feel, under real driving conditions. Connect the vacuum line and drive the car up a steep, long grade, with the car in high gear and at a low speed, 30-40mph. Occasionally push the accelerator to the floor, and listen and feel for knocking and/or loss of power. If you detect this, immediately back of. This means the canister is advancing too much and you should adjust the canister so the diaphragm is 'tighter', by turning the screw counterclockwise.

        You can also adjust the vacuum canister clockwise until it does start to ping and then back it off 2 turns. This should set your Vacuum Advance perfectly.

       
   

       

       Read this!   Might be some help


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

8/06/2019 5:39 PM  #14


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Lightest springs(weakest) is what I used.
The 'ideal' slot would 10...11...12 a low number. Naturally...........that ain't what your distrib has!!
Read my post below about  placing a bushing around the post to "shorten up" the slot.  I made a bushing  from an old pushrod. Cut a chunk with the grinder and slipped it right over the post. (the post is that squar-ish looking pertrusion in the slot). Someone else said they used a piece of shrink tube to slide on the post. You're gonna need something thicker than than shrink tube though. Looks like the other slot is even longer!
The older distributor (1975) are the ones to get (butt you didn't KNOW that when you bought this one. How bout a little piece of copper tubing?! That might work.
The whole idea....other than the light springs is to be able to run more INITIAL advance and still not exceed the total number of 36*.  In the 16 slot.....you have 32* mechanical advance. That only leaves you 4-6 degrees initial advance to play with.  Stock heads need more "lead time" on the timing butt.....40-42* is prolly the absolute maximum! You DON'T want the engine running at speed(where you can't HEAR spark knock) that could damage it.
Unless someone on here has a distributor with a lower number advance plate..........or you go to the parts store and 'swap' your distrib for one for an older 1975-ish dizzy...your stuck with this.
I'd put the bushing on the post (copper tubing/thick wall) light springs...put it in and see how far it advances. Turn it back so the reading on the timing tape is 36-40* max. and clamp it down. The initial is wherever it falls.  I bet you will STILL see a big improvement in the giddy-yup!
6sally6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

8/06/2019 6:17 PM  #15


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

6sally6 wrote:

Lightest springs(weakest) is what I used.
The 'ideal' slot would 10...11...12 a low number. Naturally...........that ain't what your distrib has!!
Read my post below about  placing a bushing around the post to "shorten up" the slot.  I made a bushing  from an old pushrod. Cut a chunk with the grinder and slipped it right over the post. (the post is that squar-ish looking pertrusion in the slot). Someone else said they used a piece of shrink tube to slide on the post. You're gonna need something thicker than than shrink tube though. Looks like the other slot is even longer!
The older distributor (1975) are the ones to get (butt you didn't KNOW that when you bought this one. How bout a little piece of copper tubing?! That might work.
The whole idea....other than the light springs is to be able to run more INITIAL advance and still not exceed the total number of 36*.  In the 16 slot.....you have 32* mechanical advance. That only leaves you 4-6 degrees initial advance to play with.  Stock heads need more "lead time" on the timing butt.....40-42* is prolly the absolute maximum! You DON'T want the engine running at speed(where you can't HEAR spark knock) that could damage it.
Unless someone on here has a distributor with a lower number advance plate..........or you go to the parts store and 'swap' your distrib for one for an older 1975-ish dizzy...your stuck with this.
I'd put the bushing on the post (copper tubing/thick wall) light springs...put it in and see how far it advances. Turn it back so the reading on the timing tape is 36-40* max. and clamp it down. The initial is wherever it falls.  I bet you will STILL see a big improvement in the giddy-yup!
6sally6

 Love the info sir thanks

Also ordered myself a cranecams kit for getting the right spring combination and a good vaccum advance canister .

Y’all rock!! More photo updates to follow as I work on it .


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

8/06/2019 7:48 PM  #16


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

How to get the plate off.......
Inside the distrib shaft there is a felt plug that holds oil/grease to lube the shaft(I guess) Anyway...there is a wire retaining clip with two ears sticking up. The clip goes into a groove in the shaft. With long needle-nose(what'd-you-call-me?!) pliers grab one of the ends and pull up.  That should let the plate side off.
6sally6

PS.........I bent the 'snot' out of mine and then....I launched-it somewhere! .  Never found it I tried a home-made one butt that didn't fit tight enough. Soooooo like a good shade tree mechanic...........I left it out!!
Been that way for years with zero ill effects.
I'm sure they make a wire clip removal tool butt-eye didn't have one so............fire me!!


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

8/06/2019 9:27 PM  #17


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Thanks Sally, I learnt something today. Now if I can just adjust that vacuum canister correctly.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

8/07/2019 4:28 AM  #18


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

So your max advance is 34 degrees.  I'd start at 36 (add two degrees of base timing) and test it.  Go up in 2 degree increments until you get pinging under high load conditions (pulling a steep hill in high gear for example).  Then back it off to the previous setting.  I would not be concerned if you get up into the 40s so long as it doesn't ping.

Fuel grade will also have some impact on this.  You'll find there's no benefit to running a higher grade fuel than you need.  In fact the engine will get less mileage and make less power.  Higher grade fuels are harder to ignite, which is how they are resistant to autoignition.  I ran 93 octane in y '67 for years but now run 89 without issue, and probably could run 87.  Typical low compression engines just don't need the higher octane. 

 

8/07/2019 12:36 PM  #19


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

TKOPerformance wrote:

So your max advance is 34 degrees.  I'd start at 36 (add two degrees of base timing) and test it.  Go up in 2 degree increments until you get pinging under high load conditions (pulling a steep hill in high gear for example).  Then back it off to the previous setting.  I would not be concerned if you get up into the 40s so long as it doesn't ping.

Fuel grade will also have some impact on this.  You'll find there's no benefit to running a higher grade fuel than you need.  In fact the engine will get less mileage and make less power.  Higher grade fuels are harder to ignite, which is how they are resistant to autoignition.  I ran 93 octane in y '67 for years but now run 89 without issue, and probably could run 87.  Typical low compression engines just don't need the higher octane. 

Define low compression?............9:1?           9.5:1?
Just trying to learn.
6sal6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

8/07/2019 3:37 PM  #20


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Low compression I would define as 9:1 or lower.  Basically anything that would run on 87 octane.  They need tremendous amounts of spark lead because they get little help from compression in terms of flame front travel. 

 

8/07/2019 5:17 PM  #21


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Summit outdid themselves . Ordered yesterday it’s here today



Here are the contents


But can someone please explain to me what they mean by Their spring combinations ..?
One heavy spring and one black spring for 2500rpm? Or two black springs? Or a black and a heavy that they provide ?




If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

8/07/2019 6:53 PM  #22


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

I'm about to order the lighter springs kit and wondered what works best for the Autolite distributor with the Pertronix ignition module?
Is the adjustible vacuum advance worth getting?
Thanks!

Last edited by Stevo (8/07/2019 7:01 PM)


1964-1/2 D Code Coupe - 289 V8, 4 Speed Toploader, 3.00 ratio rear, Autolite 4100 Carb, 15" tires, Pertronix ignition
 

8/07/2019 8:18 PM  #23


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Stevo wrote:

I'm about to order the lighter springs kit and wondered what works best for the Autolite distributor with the Pertronix ignition module?
Is the adjustible vacuum advance worth getting?
Thanks!

 
This kit works well with the duraspark and duraspark-2 distributors .. I am using it for my duraspark-2.. I still haven’t installed and tested it but why I got it was because it came with instructions of what springs to use .. lol which is still a bit unclear but better than just having a handful of springs and throwing them on to see where you land .


Btw
If someone can help me understand this manual page I posted and tell me if I am
Supposed to keep one original spring (heavy) and add the black one I’d appreciate that!!!


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

8/07/2019 8:19 PM  #24


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

Stevo wrote:

I'm about to order the lighter springs kit and wondered what works best for the Autolite distributor with the Pertronix ignition module?
Is the adjustible vacuum advance worth getting?
Thanks!

 
Adjustable vaccum is well worth it . And can be bought for 25 bucks anywhere . Don’t need to spend 50 bucks on this kit if you are not recurving


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
     Thread Starter
 

8/07/2019 9:07 PM  #25


Re: Recurve distributor DURASPARK-2

I didn't use ANY of the stock springs! JUST THE TWO LIGHTEST SPRINGS.  Think about it this way. You want a spring just strong enough to pull the mechanism closed when you shut the engine off. (Easier for the starter to spin over if its not fully advanced.)  "Some guys" just use plastic tie wraps to lock the advance mechanism WIDE OPEN!  Just have a strong battery and good starter to crank the engine over. (more of a race application but just trying to explain how the mechanism works)
Just stay on track like you were on (and how we talked about). 2 lightest springs. Use a bushing of some type to 'limit' the TOTAL advance to no more than 38-40* at 2500RPM or so.   OR..use the 2 light springs and no bushings anf just limit your total to 36-40* when turning your distrib.and watching your timing tape with a timing light. The bushing deal would be better butt..........if you can't, go with what you got.
Did you say you had some type copper tubing to fit on post for a bushing?
The pic you sent me is as far apart as you need to take it.
DO YOU KNOW where I am talking about putting a bushing? If not.......say so.
6s6

Last edited by 6sally6 (8/07/2019 9:09 PM)


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

Board footera


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