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1/17/2020 8:14 PM  #51


Re: Cam Change?

   I got it put back together and it's not good. I took it around the block and initially it was good, so I went around the next bigger block. Half way around sitting at a stop sign the oil pressure was at half gage. It's typically always pegged on hi. As I headed home I watched it slowly go to zero I stopped to check it. It seemed ok so I continued, no clatter by the time I got home. Thinking it was a 50 year old gage issue I put a new sensor in and watch it do the same thing so I put a mechanical gage on it and again watched it do it again. Each time I ran it after that first time it started out what seems like 40 psi. The gage went down quicker each time. The oil looks like the first batch and is non farris. I guess my next step is to take apart the oil pump as I start my search for the failure.
   Back in 2004 my original balancer spun so the machine shop supplied a new one. He put the timing marks on it so I thought I should check it. I found that it is with in + - 2° due to the rotational slop in the crank when the piston is at TDC. I don't have a protractor to attach to the balancer to get any more accurate than that.
   While I had the engine out I took the tranny shop and had them go through it after I did my thing to it. The only thing they did was put the new gears you mentioned and told me it was good. I'll call them again Mon or Tues. 


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
 

1/18/2020 6:04 AM  #52


Re: Cam Change?

If the metal is non ferrous and you have no oil pressure I don't think the oil pump is your issue.  Everything in the oil pump is ferrous.  It sounds like its eating the bearings for some reason.  I would stop running it, pull it, and tear it down at this point. 

 

1/18/2020 2:49 PM  #53


Re: Cam Change?

yuuuuuup  


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

1/20/2020 10:37 AM  #54


Re: Cam Change?

UN---ZIIIIIIIIIP


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

1/20/2020 12:25 PM  #55


Re: Cam Change?

There is a remote chance that the engine is essentially running out of oil as you drive it.  Clogged baffles in the pan can limit the amount of oil that makes it to the pickup screen.  If it sits, the oil will finally drain back down and you'll have pressure for a little while when your re-start.  I don't think a clogged filter would do this as it should go to bypass if it is a mess.  Also, there is a chance that your oil return holes in the heads are clogged up.  All the oil gets pumped into the valve covers/heads as you drive which can cause a loss in oil pressure.  Again, when you shut it off for a bit the oil will eventually drain back down.  You might see this if you pull the dipstick immediately after you shut it off and then check it again a few minutes later.  And in the strange but true, someone I know put a can of the magic teflon additive fixes everything stuff in a high mileage motor based on nothing but TV ads.  A perfectly good high mile motor lost oil pressure with a full sump because the teflon magic additive created some sort of primordial ooze that blocked the pickup screen.

You can check those things but it does sound like it might be time for a rebuild, unfortunately.

 

1/24/2020 9:04 PM  #56


Re: Cam Change?

I got it all unzipped today, out of the car and torn down. Dey ain't nutin wrong wi ti! The bearings are all shiny where they are supposed to be. I don't see where any metal is coming from except the cam gear. It's worn but I don't think it's that significant. It doesn't explain the non faris metal. My theory is still the oil pump, pressure relief? Or a defective oil filter relief valve?    


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

1/24/2020 10:39 PM  #57


Re: Cam Change?

HudginJ3 wrote:

I got it all unzipped today, out of the car and torn down. Dey ain't nutin wrong wi ti! The bearings are all shiny where they are supposed to be. I don't see where any metal is coming from except the ____cam gear___. It's worn but I don't think it's that significant. It doesn't explain the non faris metal. My theory is still the oil pump, pressure relief? Or a defective oil filter relief valve?    

You mean the distributor gear NOT the cam gear......right?!

I'd clean it up the best you can with Brakleen (I love that stuff) ...wipe it out with a roll of towels....clean the oil pan REAL good........  check the thrust bear clearence one-more-time....get another oil pump (You use a Melling?).....fresh oil and prime it with a drill motor stuck in the distrib hole..make sure you get oil coming up to both side of the heads...say a prayer and try it again.  Bet it will work flawlessly!!
 Looks like you dodged-a-bullet to me!!
6sally6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

1/24/2020 11:07 PM  #58


Re: Cam Change?

Doug,
If it makes you feel better, back on my day job I have had brand new Ingersall Rand compressor oil pumps not pump a lick. We grabbed another one from stores and it didn’t pump oil either. We got a third pump from the local rep and it worked like a champ. The rep sent the two non-workee pumps back to I-R to autopsy. They reported back that both pumps miked out well within tolerances for new pumps, but neither of them would pump oil for the I-R folks either. Take Mike’s advise and buy a new standard flow/pressure oil pump and try again. That nonferrous metal is probably bearing metal from the initial startup clearancing. 

 

1/25/2020 8:23 AM  #59


Re: Cam Change?

I’m glad all looks well inside. Have you tried to run the oil pump with a drill to see how it acts? Did the machine shop check the clearances on the oil pump?

Does the cam gear look like it’s worn more now even after changing the distributor gear? Time for detective work before it all goes back together.


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

1/25/2020 9:38 AM  #60


Re: Cam Change?



This was taken thru a magnifying glass. It is of the cam. The dist gear shows no wear. The cam gear wear has not changed since replacing the dist gear. You say to replace the oil pump with a regular pump? Why not a high volume pump? And brand? Your question mark confuses me 😎 I’m not opposed to a Melling pump or a Motorcraft pump. Which one is better? I never took the pump to the machine shop. It was working fine (?) when I initially took the engine apart I thought. Although the oil pressure was down a little when I tore down the engine. I later attributed that to the worn connecting rod bearings.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

1/25/2020 10:57 AM  #61


Re: Cam Change?

No big deal with the ?? mark.     Just -oh no I used a word I shouldn't have--umed you used Melling since they are so popular.
Although.......'I have read' where some Mellings are better than others!?!
Everyone suggests to take the cover off and check the clearances..... I didn't butt its been a loooong time age back before so much Chinese knockoff stuff came on the market.
Do a little research which Melling brand is considered "better" than the others. SBF (unlike Shivel-laz) have great oiling system and std. pressure pumps are well up to the task. Forget the old adage...."if a little is good...then a lot should be better". You do have a HEAVY DUTY oil pump driveshaft, don't you? (good insurance) What kind does Steve use in his builds?!
Just be sure to prime the engine oil system REALLY well before you fire it up.
I'm sure you are 'gun-shy' for sure with all the stuff that's happened before.  Hang-in-there and just check your work as you re-assembly and you will get it this time!!
Post lotsa pictures
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

1/25/2020 11:08 AM  #62


Re: Cam Change?

for close up pics, I’ve had good luck from a clear picture with the camera zoom all the way back. Then zoom in on the picture and crop it.

That’s great there is no additional wear.

Regular volume versus high volume versus high pressure can start another debate. I will use another standard volume oil pump that the machine shop has verified clearances internally. He took about .015 off the housing of the last one to get the internal clearances to his liking. May not seem like much, but I look at as a bypass preventing oil from going through the motor.

What type of oil filter was on it. I ran Fram’s for years, but they have gotten a bad press in the last 10 years. Now it’s Wix and Ford Racing. Have you cut the oil filter apart?

I like Melling. They have a good name for oil pumps. I can’t say that one is better that the other.


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

1/25/2020 11:50 AM  #63


Re: Cam Change?



I've been talking to an airplane friend of mine that used to build "shebies." He's now building an airplane.
Melling is the way to go, regular flow unless I'm going to over rev it. It won't over rev because of the cam I have. I do have the heavy duty ARP drive. I used the Motorcraft FL-1 oil filter but haven't open it up and I don't think I need to after seeing what the inside of the parts look like. I'm thinking that all the "metal flake" is engine machining left overs. Ive' never had reason to take an engine apart right after initial run before so I'm thinking all that junk is normal. ????  So I'm off to Summit. You need anything?
Brake cleaner? (you love that stuff) Carb cleaner? Automatic Trans fluid?   ?????


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

1/25/2020 1:05 PM  #64


Re: Cam Change?

An offer like that is dangerous. The list could be long!!!


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

1/25/2020 5:22 PM  #65


Re: Cam Change?

I love that workbench picture.  Wait... there IS a workbench, right?


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/25/2020 5:33 PM  #66


Re: Cam Change?

Wow, I have the same little compressor.

Your's


Mine


I purchased mine in 1980 and it has been the best little portable tankless compressor money could buy.

Last edited by RV6 (1/25/2020 5:35 PM)


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

1/25/2020 6:06 PM  #67


Re: Cam Change?

If you look under the vise there is a work bench. That's what you set vises onto. If you can take it off the bench then the vise is called portable and the bench becomes a table. I used to do all this work at the airport where I had plenty of room but they changed the rules. Under the vise behind the compressor is an air tank that I connected to the compressor. It's been a great little compressor I've had since 83. That get up works good enough to do a differential compression check one cylinder at a time.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

1/25/2020 6:19 PM  #68


Re: Cam Change?

HudginJ3 wrote:

If you look under the vise there is a work bench. That's what you set vises onto. If you can take it off the bench then the vise is called portable and the bench becomes a table. I used to do all this work at the airport where I had plenty of room but they changed the rules. Under the vise behind the compressor is an air tank that I connected to the compressor. It's been a great little compressor I've had since 83. That get up works good enough to do a differential compression check one cylinder at a time.

Back in 84 I painted a truck with that little compressor and it looked pretty good when done, the truck that is.
 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

1/25/2020 6:38 PM  #69


Re: Cam Change?

Did you look at the cam bearing while it was apart? 

I've used exclusively Melling Standard volume and pressure pumps for years in every engine I've ever built.  I always check the clearances, and I've yet to find one out of spec.  I usually drill the cover bolts and safety wire them because I'm anal.  I do the pickup bolts on a Ford too (I weld a Chevy one to the pump).  SBC, BBC and SBFs all have great oiling systems.  They don't need any trickery with pumps, etc. to make them live, even at high RPM and making a lot of power.  Had you a Buick, AMC, etc. it would be a different story.  Those engines had terrible oiling systems and need a to of work to make them live.  All a high volume or pressure pump does in an engine that doesn't need one is place added stress on the driveshaft and waste HP. 

 

1/25/2020 10:35 PM  #70


Re: Cam Change?

HudginJ3 wrote:



I'm thinking that all the "metal flake" is engine machining left overs. Ive' never had reason to take an engine apart right after initial run before so I'm thinking all that junk is normal. ????   ?

"Engine machining leftovers"??!..........Thats where the Brakleen (I love that stuff), A/T fluid, and paper towels come in at!
Should be able to wipe a white paper towel 'anywhere' and not get anything on it! 
Third time will be the charm!
6sal6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

2/07/2020 8:44 PM  #71


Re: Cam Change?

I fired the engine today for the first time for about 10 minutes after tearing it back down to the bare block. I rewashed it and reassembled it with new bearings and oil pump. It lost oil pressure from 40 lbs to 0. I guess the block has a crack in an oil galley someplace???  I found a 1989 to replace the block that is complete but looks pretty rough in the pics for $500 that is pretty close to me. It would need to be machined to take my crank and pistons. Does it have all the same bolt holes as a 70 block? Any other engines or blocks are pretty far away. This bash thrash taking the engine in and out of the car is wearing me out!! I'm beginning to doubt that I'll make it.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/07/2020 8:49 PM  #72


Re: Cam Change?

I'm speechless!!!!
Yeah....BLOCKS from 70 to 89 should have the same holes.
WOW!!!   Hang with it pal....its bound to get better.
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

2/07/2020 9:05 PM  #73


Re: Cam Change?

Hang in there brother, I feel your pain. Oh wait, that's my pain. They say misery loves company, welcome to the crowd.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

2/07/2020 11:13 PM  #74


Re: Cam Change?

Sorry to hear that Don. I feel your pain too. Just think though, you’ve built the same motor twice while I’m still waiting on parts from the machine shop!!!

Before you give up on the block completely, have you thought about trying to find the “crack”? Set it on the stand, pull the intake and pan, place a trough under it to catch the oil, rig a hose to pick up oil, and spin the pump with a drill.

If it’s a passage, it might be able to be sleeved.

A good block to save as a spare for later is never a bad option.


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

2/08/2020 12:43 PM  #75


Re: Cam Change?

I can't believe you have a crack somewhere as it ran fine before all this changing out of stuff. You start out at 40psi and drift to 0 would have to be a huge crack/hole. Are you sure all the plugs in the oil galley. The ones up front by the cam retainer plate come to mind. 

Keep at it though and I feel your pain. April is coming.
 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

Board footera


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