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2/08/2020 6:47 PM  #76


Re: Cam Change?

RV6 wrote:

I can't believe you have a crack somewhere as it ran fine before all this changing out of stuff. You start out at 40psi and drift to 0 would have to be a huge crack/hole. Are you sure all the plugs in the oil galley. The ones up front by the cam retainer plate come to mind. 

Keep at it though and I feel your pain. April is coming.
 

^^^^^^^^^^  What he said!............Think'in the same thing. IF it was just a small crack it would still hold some pressure. Gotta be a big hole to bottom out 40psi  of oil pressure. Did you tap the holes (that sounds kinky!) and use screw in plugs?
 
I don't know!!!
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

2/08/2020 7:07 PM  #77


Re: Cam Change?

Sure the oil pump drive shaft is fully engaged?

Since it has pressure at start-up, I would be looking at stuff like the oil pump pickup being too close to the oil pan, or something else restricting oil intake into the pump.
Or the pump itself.

Hang in there!  You will make the bash!


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

2/08/2020 7:09 PM  #78


Re: Cam Change?

Sure the oil pump drive shaft is fully engaged?

Since it has pressure at start-up, I would be looking at stuff like the oil pump pickup being too close to the oil pan, or something else restricting oil intake into the pump.
Or the pump itself.

Hang in there!  You will make the bash!

If you really do need to replace the block, I would suggest 94 or newer roller block.  You could still use your flat tappet cam, but the block would be “ready” if you ever decided to change to a roller cam


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

2/08/2020 10:51 PM  #79


Re: Cam Change?

When I first installed the engine, I was adjusting the valves. I heard a loud sharp crack type noise when I was turning it over by hand. At the time I assumed that I didn't have a pushrod correctly seated and it snapped a valve shut, so I kept on going. That's the only thing I can associate with all this trouble.
I bought a new oil pump and used the same drive shaft. It's a heavy duty ARP shaft. The new pump came with a new shaft, the lock washer is in the same place on both of them. I put the shaft in the pump and then installed it. It won't engage if you put it in from the top. The new pump is the same depth (length) as the other one. Im using the same oil pan that I have for the last 4 years.
I used my drill motor to build up pressure again this morning and fired it. The pressure came up to 40 and bled down fairly quickly as it warmed up. I shut it off at 20 PSI and am now disassembling it. The cam oil galley plugs are the press in type. They were replaced the first time around with the new cam bearings.
  I would need to have a block machined for the stroker crank, squared up and punched, so to machine it for the roller cam would be done at the same time. Are you thinking I should go ahead and install the shortblock as is till after the bash? I'm not sure I would trust that move? I would think it would run pretty crappy (rich) with the carb I have??.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/09/2020 9:12 AM  #80


Re: Cam Change?

Sharp crack type noise - I wonder what that was and if it had/has anything to do with the current problem. Was there any binding when the noise happened. Maybe it was just a wrench dropping to the floor.
Oil filter - what brand? have you changed it each and every time? Could it have collapsed internally blocking flow?
Main/rod bearings - are you sure the correct size bearings are being used for the mains and rods? Low oil pressure can be caused by loose bearings. Did you check clearances with plastigauge?


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

2/09/2020 9:18 AM  #81


Re: Cam Change?

Just wondering if it could be a cam bearing clearance issue. Cold startup and only 40 psi seem a little low to my thinking.

 

2/09/2020 10:05 AM  #82


Re: Cam Change?

Pressure relief valve got something stuck in it. Wrong lifters?


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

2/09/2020 10:07 AM  #83


Re: Cam Change?

Gary, you know the noise you hear when you smack the valves on your Lycoming to get them to seat when doing a compression check. It was that same type of noise. I reinstalled the same bearing brand and P/N as was originally put in it. I didn't do a plasti gage check because the machine shop supplied the bearings after doing their thing to the crank and rods. If it would have failed their plasti gage check they would have supplied different bearings.
red351, The machine shop installed the cam bearings and supplied the cam so I never checked it. I'm thinking loose bearings would always have low oil pressure to start with. The 40 lbs is at initial start up at idle. I was able to get it to 60 lbs with my drill motor. I haven't reved it up yet. Little fraid to do that.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/09/2020 10:40 AM  #84


Re: Cam Change?

I would be very reluctant to make use of a short block I know nothing about without a partial disassemble to inspect at a minimum.

If you can create 60 psi of oil pressure with a drill and maintain that for the length of time it would take for the motor to warm up, then I would think there is a clearance issue somewhere. You may want to rotate it slowly during the process to look for a spot where pressure drops off. You are using the same size main and rod bearing as before, is it the same manufacture? There may be enough difference in the manufactures to loosen up the clearances.

Are all of the galley plugs secured well?

The biggest change you made was to a roller cam. Could there be an issue with the lifters causing the loss of oil pressure once it’s up to operating temp? The FE lifter bores are drilled through the center from front to back, don’t remember about the small blocks.

Have you found a schematic to show the oiling system to use as a guide for places to look?

Figuring out what was wrong with this motor would be my first goal. If the block is the problem, then the next block solves the problem. If the parts in the block are the problem, then there’s no since installing them in a different block.


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

2/09/2020 12:27 PM  #85


Re: Cam Change?

HudginJ3 wrote:

Gary, you know the noise you hear when you smack the valves on your Lycoming to get them to seat when doing a compression check. It was that same type of noise. I reinstalled the same bearing brand and P/N as was originally put in it. I didn't do a plasti gage check because the machine shop supplied the bearings after doing their thing to the crank and rods. If it would have failed their plasti gage check they would have supplied different bearings.
red351, The machine shop installed the cam bearings and supplied the cam so I never checked it. I'm thinking loose bearings would always have low oil pressure to start with. The 40 lbs is at initial start up at idle. I was able to get it to 60 lbs with my drill motor. I haven't reved it up yet. Little fraid to do that.

Years ago I advised a coworker on a rebuild of a 454 BBC for his boat.  He was working in our shop after work and I asked him what his bearing clearances were.  He looked at me blankly.  So I asked if he checked them.  Blank look again followed by "the machine shop turned the crank and gave me the bearings I'm sure they're fine".  Well, it wasn't fine.  After reinstalling the engine in the boat and hearing it run for 10 seconds it was pretty obvious that it wasn't fine.  On disassembly the engine was trashed inside.  Seems he had a crank turned 0.010 under and stock sized bearings.  Not a good match. 

Obviously, this isn't what happened or you'd see indications of it, but its why I do not take ANYTHING for granted that comes back from the machine shop.  "Should've" and "did" are quite different and "should've" costs you money, sometimes a lot.Yes, they're machinists, but also human and they make mistakes, or assumptions that turn out to be wrong. 

Point being, a quick check with plastigauge is never a bad idea.  It might be worth a quick check, if nothing else it rules out sloppy clearances. 
 

 

2/09/2020 1:59 PM  #86


Re: Cam Change?



The oil goes from the pump, through the filter and then to the #1 main and cam bearings. From there the oil galleys pump the oil to the rest of the mains and cam bearings and last but not least, to the lifters. 

Cam and lifters were changed along with new "Same Part No" main bearings. Oil is leaking at a fast rate somewhere in this loop. Are we sure the cam bearings and cam are in spec with each other? How about the lifters; any excessive clearance in the bores?

As John pointed out, if the internals are the problem then a new block wont fix it.
What weight is the breakin oil. I have never run a breakin oil, except in a lycoming, and just used high ZDDP based oils. Maybe you should try Mobil-1 15W50.

It may behove you to pull the engine apart again and blueprint it. 

Last edited by RV6 (2/09/2020 2:00 PM)


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

2/09/2020 4:06 PM  #87


Re: Cam Change?

The whole process has been nothing but a bucket of frustration. I'm going to start completely over again from scratch checking everything methodically as I disassemble it. I'll come to a conclusion before I reassemble it or go after another block.
The bearings are the same manufacture, part number, and even model? number. That however is misleading because one set of bearings had the oil groove all the way around and an earlier set didn't. That didn't effect the oil pressure though. If there is a crack in an oil galley I would suspect in a cam bearing area.
I asked questions about the cam followers, there is not supposed to be a need for any changes to the block except where the "bones" need to lay flat and to drill and tap holes for the "spider" hold down screws.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/09/2020 4:26 PM  #88


Re: Cam Change?

I don't know how the 5.0 works. The Cleveland have 5 progressively smaller size cam bearing toward the back. I don't know if it's possible to put the wrong one in the wrong hole. I just always make sure it's the right one for there.
 

Last edited by red351 (2/09/2020 4:30 PM)

 

2/09/2020 4:42 PM  #89


Re: Cam Change?

Are you saying you installed a roller cam in a non-roller block?   That is fine if correct aftermarket lifters are utilized, or if a reduced base circle cam is utilized.

Roller blocks are defined by the raised lifter bores that allow the longer roller lifters to remain within their bores even though they sit higher on the cam.

That said, if using stock Ford type roller lifters in a non-roller block, it is possible the lifter oil passages no longer align with the passages in the block.  I would think that would result in horrendous valve train noise as it lost oil pressure, though.

Are you getting alot of valvetrain noise as the oil pressure drops?   Once on a 302 I had, a piece of teflon tape got across the hole in the end of the oil pressure sender so the gauge went to zero.  The lack of valvetrain noise told me I still had plenty of oil pressure.  Temoving the tape cured my loss of oil pressure.

I apologize I have not read every post, so hope I am not asking questions already asked.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

2/09/2020 4:49 PM  #90


Re: Cam Change?

I've heard of some SBF lifters made that were just a hair too small, and caused an issue exactly like what you're describing.  It was a conversation I heard at the machine shop I now use.  They do A LOT of SBFs.  Another case where a little measuring doesn't cost anything and might lead to a solution. 

The more I'm thinking about this and the differential expansion rates of cast iron vs. steel the more I'm leaning towards this...

 

2/09/2020 5:25 PM  #91


Re: Cam Change?

I wish we all could camp for the week at your domicile. With all the brains we have here we could figure out the problem, drink some beers and have a good time.


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

2/09/2020 7:31 PM  #92


Re: Cam Change?

Mini bash at Doug’s place?


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

2/09/2020 9:59 PM  #93


Re: Cam Change?

RV6 wrote:

I wish we all could camp for the week at your domicile. With all the brains we have here we could figure out the problem, drink some beers and have a good time.

This bucket of frustrations may not seem so bad compared to all of us camping out for a week at your place  to "help" you fix it. 

We're pulling for you Doug. 
 


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

2/09/2020 11:06 PM  #94


Re: Cam Change?

Can you show us pictures of the distributor gear and the oil pump drive shaft? Probably a wild goose chase, but wouldn't hurt to look.

 

2/11/2020 5:59 PM  #95


Re: Cam Change?



I hope this is what your after. Let me know.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/11/2020 7:53 PM  #96


Re: Cam Change?

It hard to tell if the dist gear has some uneven wear or it's just shadows, but at any rate that wouldn't be the issue. In my mind I was just trying to think of anything other than clearances that might affect the engine's ability to build oil pressure when hot. But if it sheared the pin or the gear was damaged the engine would shut down because the dist stops spinning. 

 

2/11/2020 10:21 PM  #97


Re: Cam Change?

OK, I didn't know what you were looking for. That is a new gear on the dist. It has been run no longer than 10 minutes. I changed it because it was not compatible with the cam gear. The cam gear is what is worn. It has maybe 3 miles on it, and fot he miles it pretty well worn. The machine shop says it's OK. The wear is about as much as your or my finger nail is thick.  The oil pump shaft is the new one that came with the new oil pump. I'm using my original one because it is more heavy duty. The star washer is in the same place on both of them and I inserted the shaft from the bottom up when I installed the pump. That's the only way it will fit. 
I heard that the lifters for early blocks are different than the lifters in the newer blocks. I did a little internet research and I think I found that to be true. The machine shop is working with Comp Cams to verify, I think their catalog might be wrong I hope. ??? 


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/11/2020 10:22 PM  #98


Re: Cam Change?

Still trying to wrap-my-big-old-fat-misshapened-roundish-head around  this.
If we think of an engine kinda like a balloon.....oil pump pressurizes it to about 40 psi and WHILE THE ENGINE IS STILL RUNNING...pressure slowly goes down to zero.   Can't be a missing oil galley plug.......it would have never pumped up 40 psi! If it was a cracked oil galley it would not have pumped up 40psi and THEN go to zero with the oil pump pumping...it would have maintained SOME pressure if it started off with 40psi.
Doug......was there oil STILL being pumped to the rockers/head even when the pressure was going down to zero?
IF you are using an after market roller cam....are you using the roller lifters that CAME with the cam?
It's got me talking to myself so I know its got you muttering!
Let us know when you find something.


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

2/11/2020 10:31 PM  #99


Re: Cam Change?

I don't know the answer to your question 6, I didn't pull the valve covers with it running. I only pumped up the oil pressure with my valve covers off with my drill. That was pretty messy as it was. I think it would go higher but my drill can't handle it and quits. Ill find out the results of the investigation tomorrow or Thursday and go from there.


70, ragtop 351W/416 stroker Edel Performer heads w pro flow 4, Comp roller 35-421-8. T5
     Thread Starter
 

2/11/2020 11:03 PM  #100


Re: Cam Change?

To be honest I don't know what I am looking for either! But like 6s6 it is an odd situation so just trying to look at everything for a clue.

 

Board footera


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