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5/25/2016 6:19 PM  #1


OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Ongoing harmonic vibration in my 66 fastback.
History:
Harmonic vibration continues and has been in the car since 1993..

All this stuff has been changed:
Engine (100% of it) 3x
Flywheel 3x
Clutch 4x
Transmission, C-4. Then T5, now TKO600 (both brand new)
Motor mounts 4x
Trans mount 3x
Trans crossmember 3x
Driveshaft changed 3x all balanced
Rear end changed 4x, various ratios and housings
Rear axles 2x
Brakes 2x
Wheels/tires 4x
Front brakes 2x
Front bearings 3x
Shocks 4x
Engine fan 2x
Rear springs 2x
Exhaust systems 3x including various hanger systems
Pinion angle is perfectly matched, tranny down two degrees, rear end up two degrees. Have tried various angles plus or minus three degrees with no change in the vibration.

Vibration feels like a bearing or something is wobbling or something. A cyclical low frequency roar.
Comes on at 72+ mph. Smooth as glass below that speed.

Feels like I have built three cars but only get to drive the one with the vibration.

I am out of ideas.
How about yours?

And you wondered where that MustangSteve's LAW thing came from...

Last edited by MS (5/25/2016 6:21 PM)


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

5/25/2016 7:10 PM  #2


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Maybe give the rearend builder a test drive and get his expert ideas     

 

5/25/2016 7:20 PM  #3


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Haunted maybe?
I'm sure GPatrick will provide some input to this post as, although I haven't changed the quantity of components you have, I have some slight vibration issues that I haven't resolved.


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

5/25/2016 7:22 PM  #4


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Multiple small standing waves merging at 72 mph? Do you know someone with a audio frequency analyzer you can borrow? If you can identify the frequency of the offending noise you can eliminate system by system.

If it was my car I would slap on a bunch of Dynamat vibration mats to see if a quick shot from the old parts cannon can score a hit.

Do you have hub centering rings on all four wheels?

Last edited by Hornman (5/25/2016 7:25 PM)

 

5/25/2016 7:23 PM  #5


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Have you ever changed the front spindles and or the front hubs?    I think I'd be inclined to try replacing the front hubs one side at a time if it bugs you that much.   What have you got to lose?  Its only $$$. right?


If multiple things can go wrong, the one that will go wrong will be the one that causes the most damage.
 

5/25/2016 7:39 PM  #6


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Greg B wrote:

Have you ever changed the front spindles and or the front hubs?    I think I'd be inclined to try replacing the front hubs one side at a time if it bugs you that much.   What have you got to lose?  Its only $$$. right?

Hubs 2x
Spindles 2x
Rotors 2x

Rear wheels centered by axle registers. Fronts Not, but factory wheels were not and same issue wth multiple wheels.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

5/25/2016 8:12 PM  #7


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Steve, you used the word "Harmonic" that leads my feeble mind to something is getting excited at a frequency that has nothing to do (necessarily) with the rotating parts, but gets it thing on at that beat! My experience is that all kind of stuff can get in the beat, but most usually the whole engine tranny assembly gets to moving in harmony with the speed of things. If the problem is for your ears more than your bottom, it may be a panel somewhere getting going. If it is your bottom and or hands on the wheel noticing it, most likely a drive train issue. I had to add about 8 pounds to the tail shaft housing on one car to get the thing to quit the vibration. I tried different motor and trans mounts, but it only quieted down with the balance weight on the tail shaft housing hanging out about 10 inches. Mass of engine tranny assembly/ engine and tranny mount "K" factor, excitation forces all equaled a shake at a frequency. I also had the problem with the floor pan once that did a similar thing when a certain speed was present. Ended up  putting an additional rib in the floor (BFH). Noticed that one when the kids were in the car and it didn't happen. Had the kids lift their feet and vibration back. That one wasn't a Mustang though it had a lot larger floor pan.
Just more food for thought!

Dave

 

5/25/2016 8:20 PM  #8


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

What about having a fancy 4 wheel alignment done, where they can use the laser to measure all four wheels and check for straightness, trueness and distance from front wheels, etc.  I realize there isn't anything in back to align, but if you were to find out it was off ever so slightly because of manufacturing tolerances, maybe you could make some type of offset spacer to true out the rear axle.  


If multiple things can go wrong, the one that will go wrong will be the one that causes the most damage.
 

5/25/2016 8:35 PM  #9


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Always at 72 MPH or does the problem speed change with tire diameters or gear ratios?  Does it happen if you run it up to 80 and coast through it or only when dwelling at that speed?  Any difference in 4th gear versus 5th gear?  Something you feel or hear or both?  Is it more noticeable with windows up or down?  Gaba was able to get me a recording a while back from his phone that I was able to analyze.  I would need to know engine RPM, what gear you are in, and tire diameters to calculate forcing frequencies at 72 MPH.

What you are describing sounds like a beat where you have two closely spaced frequency sources that go in and out of phase.  When in-phase they add together increasing the amplitude and later they subtract from one another.  The difference between the two frequencies is the beat frequency.  You can hear this on a prop plane with twin engines when the speeds differ between the two.  What you hear in plane you can feel in a car.  If you can hold steady at this speed, count the number of beats you hear/feel in one minute.  You might want someone else look at a watch while doing this.  The beat frequency can help identify the two frequencies in play.

While sitting in the car, you could have someone impact some of the panels on the car with the heel of their hand to see if any of the natural frequencies of the various panels match the sound(s) you are hearing.  Try several sections of the roof, the hatch, rear window, etc.  A little vibration source can excite the natural frequency of a panel and if the source and natural frequency don't match exactly you can have a beat.  For example, does the beat that you feel/hear change when at 71 or 73?  If you have an hour to spare on the bash, I can bring an analyzer with me to do some basic tests to see if anything stands out.  If impacting the rear window matches the frequency we can measure the actual frequency and compare it to the forcing frequencies of the engine and driveline.  By the way, you don't need wail on the panels to excite their frequencies so don' worry about dents!

In the short-term, a audio recording would be a good starting point.  I can import most .WAV files and Gaba knows the technique.

 

5/25/2016 8:56 PM  #10


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Maybe its the wind moving the body work that you were so fond of.

 

5/25/2016 9:17 PM  #11


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Hot Rod did an article on a vibration problem few years ago on a 67 fastback. Maybe it will give an idea how to approach the problem.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/1405-1967-ford-mustang-vibrates-during-right-turns/

 

5/25/2016 9:59 PM  #12


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

It sounds like you have replaced everything but the body, maybe it is a valance. Try removing or place some dynamat in a few places.  I also read somewhere about tie rod adjuster clamps causing noise as well as power steering hoses in the wind under the car.

 

5/25/2016 11:05 PM  #13


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

David67 wrote:

Hot Rod did an article on a vibration problem few years ago on a 67 fastback. Maybe it will give an idea how to approach the problem.

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/chassis-suspension/1405-1967-ford-mustang-vibrates-during-right-turns/

Yes, that is a very good article on tracking down a vibration. 


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

5/26/2016 6:51 AM  #14


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

MS I am certainly not the expert here, but thinking out loud. Has this car ever been in a side impact. We always care about the Pinion angle as it relates to top to bottom, wouldn't the same issue be a problem left to right. How do you check to make sure the rear end is square left to right on the engine?

 

5/26/2016 6:52 AM  #15


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

I would call an Exorcist...jj


"Never put a question mark where God put a period "  Richard Petty
 

5/26/2016 8:38 AM  #16


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Here is a picture of the tailshaft counterbalance weight that I got with my T5.  I decided to remove it when I installed the tranny.  I am now thinking about putting it backon because I have a very slight vibration that I can feel when I rest my hand on the shifter knob.  I am going to pay very close attention when and if I install it.  Just to let folks know, it is a pain to install; seems like it is in the way of other things (tailpipes, framerail extension cross bar support, etc.).


Mustang Steve Bash in Gruene, Texas September29-30, 2023
 

5/26/2016 9:22 AM  #17


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Sounds as though you have changed the usual suspects multiple times, only leaving a body panel as flexing in the wind possibly. 
Have you  put the rear on some safe stands and run it through the gears to see if you get the problem then?  You say problem started in 1993 or that's when you got the car and it's done every since you have owned it?  Or did you change something in 93?


66 Vert.  4.6 DOHC, 4R70 Auto, Heidt's M2 frontend
 

5/26/2016 9:48 AM  #18


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Today I am going to remove the AC belt and go drive the car.  If it ever quits raining.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

5/26/2016 10:52 AM  #19


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Well, not fanbelt related.
Vibration goes away if clutch is depressed at speed. Car becomes smooth as glass at 80 with clutch pushed in.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

5/26/2016 11:20 AM  #20


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

I bet the Pros at Midas could fix it....    Id try a Sport Cam recorder.  Put it under the hood take some video while driving.   Id install it under the car at different locations and watch it.   I think then you could pin point where the noise/vibrations  is coming from.  Steve69

 

5/26/2016 11:22 AM  #21


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

MS wrote:

Well, not fanbelt related.
Vibration goes away if clutch is depressed at speed. Car becomes smooth as glass at 80 with clutch pushed in.

 
I had a similar problem with my 66 coupe. When I got under the car to check the pinion angle I found that the axle had shifted slightly and was actually crooked from side to side. Apparently the u bolts were not tight enough and the resulting movement wore the aluminum lowering blocks and every thing shift catty wampus. Could be that for what ever reason the axle is not square in the car in relation to the drive line. Does any of that make sense?


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
 

5/26/2016 12:13 PM  #22


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Put it on a DIno and walk around the car and look what starts to vibrate as they run it.

 

5/26/2016 12:24 PM  #23


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Mark Z wrote:

Put it on a DIno and walk around the car and look what starts to vibrate as they run it.

Good Idea!
 

 

5/26/2016 12:49 PM  #24


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Okay, clutch in and it is smooth. if all the usual suspects have been checked, changed and replace, I would try changing the weight/ balance in the car . A little more in the trunk or up front, maybe even try effecting the airflow. When you are lifting to clutch, you are also changing the lift or dive that the chassis is seeing. My 2$

 

5/26/2016 1:27 PM  #25


Re: OK, I'm going to need some help with this one

Car has been driven across the USA with varying amounts of passengers and cargo in the trunk.  No change.

I just drove it with no AC belt.  Made zero difference.  Did some testing with varying scenarios.  In fourth gear at speed, the harmonic vibration goes away.  This is at 75 MPH at about 3.400 RPM.  Or at least is not noticeable at all.

Rear end just replaced with all new stuff 100%.  Is square in the car and properly attached.

So...
Goes away if clutch pedal pushed in.
Goes away in fourth gear 75 MPH cruise.

Thinking of clamping some vise-grips to the tailpipes or something to see if that affects it.  It has done the same thing with 3 different exhaust systems though, all with different sizes of pipe and different hangers.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
     Thread Starter
 

Board footera


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