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I have a chance to purchase a roll bar that is made by I think it was, Auto Power. It's a 4 point roll bar with a removable cross bar. I will most likely have to trim the rear two legs to fit the DSE mini tubs and trim the over all height of the bar as it will be welded to the top of the vert inner rocker. I am suppose to be able to retain my back seat.
Not sure I need this much strength in the chassis but it sounds like it would be a good move to add it for safety reasons for when I do hit the track. Sound I go for it?
I know its one of those posts that doesn't really make sense. Today it's been a year since my father passed away and I finally closed on the sale of the property last night which took almost a year to get straightened out. So I'm not myself today.
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Some things we "never-quite-get-over".........one is a parent. My Dad's been dead for 15 years and I still miss him more than ever ! Hang in there and stay busy (like working on a Mustang!)
My thoughts.............if you have frame connectors and vert rockers a cage ain't gonna make a huge difference in stiffness! Its already stiff. For a racing application the added safety and 'rule-following' of a roll cage is mandated. (My Dad use to call it..."Man-dun-tory"
I say skip it.
6sal6
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My dad died in 1998 and I still miss him dearly. I can shed a tear on his birthday reminiscing about him with my siblings.
I too have convertible inner rockers, and a roll bar with removable cross bar. I put it in cuz I thought it'd look cool. It did stiffen the chassis to where I noticed it while jacking the car from the rear torque box. I have no rear seat and made rear trim panels to fit the roll bar. Butt... it's a real pita to get things in behind the seat. Be careful what you wish for.
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I couldn’t pass up on the price of the roll bar. It’s on its way and I can easily recoup my investment if I choose not to use it.
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I'm now at a point where I've lived over half my life without my Dad. He passed back in '99, and every year I get closer to the age he was when he passed and it messes my head up a bit. My kids are a lot younger than my brother and I were when Dad passed, and I worry about what would happen to them if something happened to me. All the financial stuff is handled, but money is a poor substitute for a loved one. Its just one of those irrational fears we all have as parents.
As for the roll bar, my thought are if you don't need it, don't. Hardtop cars don't need a bar until they are running 11.49, and then it must be a 6 point bar and meet NHRA rules. So a 4 point doesn't meet safety criteria if you were running that fast, and its just going to be in the way no matter how well it fits. These cars don't have a ton of room in them as it is, so every square inch matters.
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The question I've asked prospective car builders/restorers over the years is:
What are you going to build? Racer, show piece, or a driver. You cannot properly do more than one on a single car.
BB1
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Bullet Bob wrote:
The question I've asked prospective car builders/restorers over the years is:
What are you going to build? Racer, show piece, or a driver. You cannot properly do more than one on a single car.
BB1
Yep, I've many times said a race car makes a bad street car and a street car makes a disappointing race car. Either can also be a show car, BUT its a LOT of work.
Online!
Got to agree with BB and TKO.
The chances that a builder will take the time and expense to properly install a roll bar that would offer any rollover protection is slim to none. If it is a race car, there are strict rules to follow when installing. If it is just to add some stiffness, how stiff do you really need your car to be?
Can’t build a race car and drive it on the street. Can’t built a street car and use it to race.
Bottom line: Our opinions matter not. Build it the way you want it, and do it well. Even if you install parts that I do not particularly care for, I will congratulate you if you use good practices and exercise good workmanship in doing so. We all appreciate a job well done.
Just no yellow spark plug wires. No matter how well you install them, they are still ugly!
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I got a Shelby “Roll” bar more for looks than functionality. I put 2005 Mustang roll bar high mount third tail light in it for safety as well. It is only attached at the interior side behind the door. The car is a convertible so not much protection in case the car goes over.
As for the other component of this thread, my story.
My dad passed at 49, I was ten at the time. Growing up, my 9 year older brother was a role model , mentor and best friend. In my teens from picking tobacco to later as tool makers,we worked along side each other every day, 5 days a week till we retired. We hunted, fished, built and flew planes together and so much more. We were always there for each other, thick or thin.
He passed this last December at 90. There has not been one day since that one or more things remind me of him.
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Ok no yellow wires. Lol
I figured for less than half of the cost of a new I can’t go wrong and yes that includes it being shipped to me.
My thought was I could run more than a lap belt when needed and with the cross bar being removable I can still have some room to access the back seat. I have to admit part of me likes the way it looks and my son has wanted one since we started this build. If I don’t like it I’ll remove it.
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MS wrote:
Just no yellow spark plug wires. No matter how well you install them, they are still ugly!
I might make this my new signature
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RTM wrote:
Ok no yellow wires. Lol
I figured for less than half of the cost of a new I can’t go wrong and yes that includes it being shipped to me.
My thought was I could run more than a lap belt when needed and with the cross bar being removable I can still have some room to access the back seat. I have to admit part of me likes the way it looks and my son has wanted one since we started this build. If I don’t like it I’ll remove it.
Given the choice, and I too desire more than lap belts, I'd rather just install the 3 point conversions. That alone is probably not a valid justification for a roll bar, plus, how well is in engineered for seat belt mounts, etc?
That said, if the primary reason is you never had a car with a roll bar and you want one, well, then go for it. Years ago I wanted a car with a gear drive so I installed one in my IROC. Lord what a mistake! But I came to that conclusion from experience, not the opinions of others.
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Yeah...........me too on the gear drive.
They sound really cool...........on other guys cars.
You could always do what 'one-guy' I know did.........Build a roll bar outta 2 1/4" PVC Painted it black....wrapped it in foam...and 'posed' away! Really couldn't tell with a casual look.
This clown did it to save weight on his race car!! Believe it or not he got away with it.
6sal6
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I installed a gear drive timing set on a 460 SCJ I built. But the car idled at 1700 rpm and was very loud so I never really heard the gear drive. It had a 310 duration with 714 lift roller cam. That thing was a beast.
I do plan on hitting the track. Not sure if 500hp and Caltracs will get me lower than 11.5. I would like to drive it at Sebring but need to look into that more. Not on a competitive level, just for fun.
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500HP is enough power to run 11.5s or below, but without slicks and a drag type suspension probably not.
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TKOPerformance wrote:
500HP is enough power to run 11.5s or below, but without slicks and a drag type suspension probably not.
The car will be getting Caltracs and may even get the Caltrac split mono leafs. Since everyone is out of stock of reverse 5 leafs springs. It got me to thinking about the Caltrac options. I have to order special Caltracs with the reverse eye leafs anyways so I may as well look into running their leafs which their web site says in stock.
All my past research on Caltracs say running them with the split leaf makes for great hook up at the drag strip. But I would like it to be nice to drive on the street. I would like to put a set of slicks on it to see what it could do.
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Why can't you guys looking for reverse eye springs just buy a stock one and have the main spring flipped and rearched?
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Eaton still makes 'sprangz'.......anybody tried them?
WARNING:........They might be USA made!
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My old springs are so rusty I wouldn’t even think about trying to reuse them. As for Eaton I haven’t heard enough feedback on them as far as preventing wheel. Add to this the leafs are going to cost just as much as the mono leafs. So I thought it was a fair question to ask.
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RTM wrote:
My old springs are so rusty I wouldn’t even think about trying to reuse them. As for Eaton I haven’t heard enough feedback on them as far as preventing wheel. Add to this the leafs are going to cost just as much as the mono leafs. So I thought it was a fair question to ask.
Yeah..... I din'unt check the prices butt.....they have been around a long time.
(another site I frequent likes 'em)
6sal6
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I've used Eaton many times, and they always provided good quality springs. The issue you will have with anything they have to make is you are looking at 4 weeks or more to get them. I just talked to them on a set of springs for my F250 and they were 4-6 weeks out. I ended up going another route. Cost on the Eatons was also WAY high. I could almost buy new springs from Ford for what they wanted. They were always reasonable for typical musclecar stuff though. The way I look at it is a phone call never hurts.
Caltracs also has a great reputation. Its worth talking to them also IMO.
If you are ever going to put slicks on it make sure everything is up to snuff, or the most likely scenario is you start breaking parts. The rear, trans, driveshaft, etc. all need to be up to the power at that point. You can get away with stuff like running a stock T5 behind a stroker in a street car because it will just annihilate the tires, but slicks will shock load it and it will eventually break. An 8" rear at that power level isn't going to live unless its built (and I'm not even sure you could get everything you'd need to build it), and even a typical stock 9" won't hold up (they have a great reputation, but also have some Achilles heels in them once you make real power and put it down).
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TKOPerformance wrote:
I've used Eaton many times, and they always provided good quality springs. The issue you will have with anything they have to make is you are looking at 4 weeks or more to get them. I just talked to them on a set of springs for my F250 and they were 4-6 weeks out. I ended up going another route. Cost on the Eatons was also WAY high. I could almost buy new springs from Ford for what they wanted. They were always reasonable for typical musclecar stuff though. The way I look at it is a phone call never hurts.
Caltracs also has a great reputation. Its worth talking to them also IMO.
If you are ever going to put slicks on it make sure everything is up to snuff, or the most likely scenario is you start breaking parts. The rear, trans, driveshaft, etc. all need to be up to the power at that point. You can get away with stuff like running a stock T5 behind a stroker in a street car because it will just annihilate the tires, but slicks will shock load it and it will eventually break. An 8" rear at that power level isn't going to live unless its built (and I'm not even sure you could get everything you'd need to build it), and even a typical stock 9" won't hold up (they have a great reputation, but also have some Achilles heels in them once you make real power and put it down).
9 inch with 31 spline axles and a nodular or aluminum case with a Daytona pinion. The T5 is built by G force to handle 600hp and I have a billet steel flywheel with a twin disk clutch. The driveshaft has yet to be made.
The 9 inch I will have made 6 inches narrower than a stock 65/66 width so I can run a deeper dish rim. The leaf spring pads will also have to be moved inboard 3 inches on each side due relocating inboard to take advantage of the DSE mini tubs. For now I will be running a 3.70 gear with a Detroit locker.
After researching the cal leafs I think I will go with them. A few reasons are if I need to raise or lower the car it will be easier to adjust my ride height. I've also been reading good reviews from others that drive them on there street cars and add to the fact they should work better with the Caltracs themselves.
I've tried calling a couple of places and emailing. You would be surprised that most have not gotten back to me. It appears to be most are so busy they can't keep up with the demands.
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Everything should live. The only area where I would caution you is make sure that 9" is set up without a crush sleeve; use a solid spacer. It sounds idiotic, but I've seen that stupid sleeve cause oscillation induced failures in 9" rear before. The problem is that the pinions bearings are too close together, so Ford added that pocket bearing on the end of the pinion. Under load that sleeve actually expands and contracts like a spring, and bearings can get cockeyed in their orbit, which fractures the case at the pocket bearing bore and turns the rear into junk.
If you use a stock 9" differential there is an upgraded cross pin I would use as well. I've seen the stock one sheer off causing a complete loss of differential action and a vehicle that wouldn't move.
We broke a lot of 9"s racing and mud bogging over the years. Is a tough rear, especially for how little it weighs compared to a D60, etc., BUT it does have a couple weak links that should be addressed.
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RTM.....I definately NEED a ride in that "puppy"!
Sure hope to meet you at the MS Bash this year (whether you drive the Mustang or not)
6sally6
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TKOPerformance wrote:
Everything should live. The only area where I would caution you is make sure that 9" is set up without a crush sleeve; use a solid spacer. It sounds idiotic, but I've seen that stupid sleeve cause oscillation induced failures in 9" rear before. The problem is that the pinions bearings are too close together, so Ford added that pocket bearing on the end of the pinion. Under load that sleeve actually expands and contracts like a spring, and bearings can get cockeyed in their orbit, which fractures the case at the pocket bearing bore and turns the rear into junk.
If you use a stock 9" differential there is an upgraded cross pin I would use as well. I've seen the stock one sheer off causing a complete loss of differential action and a vehicle that wouldn't move.
We broke a lot of 9"s racing and mud bogging over the years. Is a tough rear, especially for how little it weighs compared to a D60, etc., BUT it does have a couple weak links that should be addressed.
I have the crush sleeve kit in my old 9.75 axle I built with 3.73 gears. It needs to come apart so i can install the trac loc in my truck that now has 4.10 gears. It uses the same crush sleeve kit as the 9 inch axle. So I'm familiar with them. I would have used the crush sleeve in the other 9.75 axle I built with 4.10 gears but the newer 2011 and up factory ford gears for the 9.75 will no accept a crush sleeve. I had to use a special crush sleeve to install those gears in a 2010 9.75 housing.
The detroit locker is a rebuilt nascar unit. It's suppose to be very aggressive but I couldn't pass up on the price I got it for so i'll give it a shot.
6sally6, it's unlikely I will make it this year and it's mostly due to trying to get more time off from work than I've already requested. I really want to attend the bash but even more, I would prefer to have the car finished so I can bring it.
I guess I could add some of the reasoning for my choices for this build. Many years ago I built a 460 SCJ and stuffed it in a 70 fastback with a big in big out 4 speed. The car was so scary to drive with a 710 lift and a 314 duration cam. It would not idle below 1700 rpm!!! I could drop it 2nd gear at 50-55mph and the car would loose traction. I way over built the motor for that chassis. This time around I want to make it right from the get go and just do a few things I've always wanted to do but could never afford to do before.
I was actually not going to put a roll bar in the car but my son has really wanted to put one in since we started this build. I have always wanted one anyways so when the deal popped up, I figured why now give it a go. After this post the offer to purchase got really attractive. I do appreciate everyone's input. If nothing else this post may help someone else who is searching for this topic.
TKO it's really helpful to hear from real world experience!!!
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