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4/30/2021 1:02 PM  #1


351W rocker clatter

Long time member, first time poster....

At least it feels like that. it has been quite a while since I have made a post. I fired up the 351W I did a redneck rebuild on. No machine work just had the block cleaned inspected and ball honed. Installed new rings, new bearings and sealed it up. The heads are E7 cast iron. I had them milled down by .035” to drop the combustion chamber size to 58cc and did some gasket match porting. Rockers are stock stamped steel. Engine runs well, idles well and there is good compression but the rockers are clattering under 2500 RPM. I have excellent oil pressure, all the rockers are getting oil and all the lifters are new. They are a quality hydraulic roller lifter but the clatter from the rockers sounds like it has solid roller lifters. The cam is a stock Ford truck roller. I have looked at all the rockers and none have excessive lash. Any thoughts?

 

4/30/2021 5:11 PM  #2


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Just for S & G's.....try giving them another 1/4 turn and see what happens.
When you did the initial valve adjustment did you just go a 1/2 turn?
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

4/30/2021 5:23 PM  #3


Re: 351W rocker clatter

They are OEM stamped steel rockers. There’s no adjustment. You talk him down to 25 foot pounds and you’re done.

     Thread Starter
 

4/30/2021 5:24 PM  #4


Re: 351W rocker clatter

I usually do the 1/4 turn past contact ( hyd. flat tappet anti pump up Cleveland stuff) and they will chatter a bit. Yes I use shims

Last edited by red351 (4/30/2021 5:33 PM)

 

4/30/2021 5:39 PM  #5


Re: 351W rocker clatter

He has pedestal mount on the stock E7 heads so turning after contact with the base won’t make a difference. If the heads were milled down typically that would make the rockers tighter and require shims to make up for milling.

The stamped steel rockers are typically quite, it’s the roller rockers that make noise.

 

4/30/2021 6:31 PM  #6


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Daze, how many minutes of run time does it have?  It can take half an hour for some of those high quality Ford lifters to settle down and be quiet.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

4/30/2021 8:02 PM  #7


Re: 351W rocker clatter

I don't know a lot about lifterology butt (TS&T) if you had the heads milled .035 and didn't add shims under the pedestals  you might have the lifters compressed a bit too much.  Don't know if that would make them fail to pump up properly or not....anyone?.....anyone?  They are supposed to be pre-loaded to about .021 (1/2 turn to .030 (3/4 turn) on a lifter nut...which you don't have.  With the pedestals I trial assembled and used a feeler gauge at the lifter to determine about how far the piston was being compressed.  If you just removed .035 from the head you could be down .060 or so and the lifters I checked were only good for around .070.  Maybe they aren't happy at that setting and aren't pumping up.


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

4/30/2021 10:25 PM  #8


Re: 351W rocker clatter

With heads shaved, did you add shims under pedestals?
Might need shorter pushrods?

Perhaps lifters aren’t pumping up enough to stay quiet.

Last edited by Nos681 (4/30/2021 10:26 PM)

 

5/01/2021 6:23 AM  #9


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Nos681 wrote:

With heads shaved, did you add shims under pedestals?
Might need shorter pushrods?

Perhaps lifters aren’t pumping up enough to stay quiet.

This was my initial thought as well.  0.35 is enough to move the rocker contact pattern, and thus enough to effect rocker geometry.  I would start by checking that and checking pushrod length. 
 

 

5/01/2021 3:07 PM  #10


Re: 351W rocker clatter

MS wrote:

Daze, how many minutes of run time does it have? It can take half an hour for some of those high quality Ford lifters to settle down and be quiet.

I ran it twice about 15 minutes total.  The first time brining it up to operating temp the second time just to play with it for a few minutes.  I didn't run it any more than that because of the sounds it was making but now with what you have said I have a little more confidence that runing it won't cause problems.

Bullet Bob wrote:

I don't know a lot about lifterology butt (TS&T) if you had the heads milled .035 and didn't add shims under the pedestals  you might have the lifters compressed a bit too much.  Don't know if that would make them fail to pump up properly or not....anyone?.....anyone?  They are supposed to be pre-loaded to about .021 (1/2 turn to .030 (3/4 turn) on a lifter nut...which you don't have.  With the pedestals I trial assembled and used a feeler gauge at the lifter to determine about how far the piston was being compressed.  If you just removed .035 from the head you could be down .060 or so and the lifters I checked were only good for around .070.  Maybe they aren't happy at that setting and aren't pumping up.

Interesting thought.  I did not shim the rockers.  I talked to two different machine shops.  The first one (the one that did the block) they said .035" would not be enough to cause issues with stock rockers.  They said stock pushrods came ion .050" incriments.  They said I could go with an aftermarket pushrod to adjust for the .035" but said I shouldn't need to. The second machien shop, (the one that milled the heads) said it shouldn't be an issue as long as I was getting good valve closure.  They told me to do a compression test after it was together to make sure all the valves were closing.  I did just that and all tested good.
 

     Thread Starter
 

5/04/2021 5:29 PM  #11


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Bullet Bob wrote:

If you had the heads milled .035 and didn't add shims under the pedestals  you might have the lifters compressed a bit too much.... They are supposed to be pre-loaded to about .021 (1/2 turn to .030 (3/4 turn) on a lifter nut...which you don't have.  With the pedestals I trial assembled and used a feeler gauge at the lifter to determine about how far the piston was being compressed.  If you just removed .035 from the head you could be down .060 or so and the lifters I checked were only good for around .070.  Maybe they aren't happy at that setting and aren't pumping up.

I did a test today and think that is probably the issue. I backed the bolt off on a couple of the rockers.  I then removed all lash.  With the lash out I tightened the bolt and counted the turns.  Took me 1.75 rotations to fully seat both rockers.  Based on your numbers  I calculated how much compression I would be getting with 1.75 rotations and its .0735".  Which is just over max.  I will order a shim kit and see if that solves the issue.  I never thought of to tight being an issue as long as it wasn't holding valves open.
 

     Thread Starter
 

5/04/2021 6:28 PM  #12


Re: 351W rocker clatter

I’m in a similar boat . Wondering if I’m too loose or too tight. Went with longer pushrods and noise is still there but only on one side of the engine (passenger)

Mine went in 3/4 turn after 0 lash on every one of the pedestal mount scorpion roller rockers .(self aligning type)

I’m fixing to run the engine with cut up valve covers and look at the oil flow and tapping


If it aint broke, I have'nt tried to "Fix" it yet!
 

5/05/2021 8:23 AM  #13


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Daze,

Start over on valve adjustment.
You know the drill: do one  cylinder at a time. 
Obtain zero lash on base circle, set your torque wrench to 20 ft lb and tighten that 5/16 rocker arm bolt.
Your torque wrench should click anywhere from the quarter turn to full turn point. If it doesn't, then you worry about shims, push rod length, etc.
That's the procedure for what you have.

You previously stated you just torqued each rocker arm down to 25 ft lb. Doesn't sound correct. So, redo as stated above and see how it sounds.

To recap: roller lifters, pedestal mounted stamped stock rockers, on E7 heads that were "cleaned" up. I'm running the same stock set up on both my foxbody 5.0's and have followed the steps above with good results.

Let us know the results...just takes a little of your time.

 

5/05/2021 10:28 AM  #14


Re: 351W rocker clatter

You definitely need to be on the base circle, as I can tel you from unfortunate personal experience if you aren't the bolt may break.  A 5/16" bolt ain't much when its fighting a valve spring. 

 

5/06/2021 4:46 PM  #15


Re: 351W rocker clatter

josh-kebob wrote:

Daze,

Start over on valve adjustment.
You know the drill: do one cylinder at a time.
Obtain zero lash on base circle, set your torque wrench to 20 ft lb and tighten that 5/16 rocker arm bolt.
Your torque wrench should click anywhere from the quarter turn to full turn point. If it doesn't, then you worry about shims, push rod length, etc.
That's the procedure for what you have.

It is not even close.  Like I said I get 1.75 rotations after the lash is out but to where it is only hand tight and then probably another 1/4 turn to get the torque spec.  As to the 25# the torque spec is 18-25 foot pounds so 20 is probably a better number.  I think I need shims They will be here Monday.

     Thread Starter
 

5/06/2021 6:31 PM  #16


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Have to ask, are you using the pedestal rocker channels under each pair of rockers?

 

5/06/2021 6:47 PM  #17


Re: 351W rocker clatter

josh-kebob wrote:

Have to ask, are you using the pedestal rocker channels under each pair of rockers?

 
Yes

     Thread Starter
 

5/12/2021 12:49 PM  #18


Re: 351W rocker clatter

UPDATE:

I ordered a set of rocker shims from an eBay seller.  Description said it was two sets 16 each of .030" shims and .060" shims.  That is not what showed up I received two sets of shims all .020" + or - .002".  I pulled the rockers and started installing shims.  All of them needed at least one shim and several of them needed two shims.  They are all now set with 3/4 of a turn or less of preload.  Clatter went away.

     Thread Starter
 

5/12/2021 2:08 PM  #19


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Good to hear that Day.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering.
 

5/12/2021 3:18 PM  #20


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Yeah Day! 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

5/12/2021 5:46 PM  #21


Re: 351W rocker clatter

That’s great.


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

5/12/2021 8:58 PM  #22


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Way cool.


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

7/10/2021 7:16 PM  #23


Re: 351W rocker clatter

I went out and fired it up and the clatter was back.  The engine sounds like a diesel.  I went to the rule "if your having a problem go back to the last thing changed"  so I opened the motor back up and put the original lifters back in.  (thankfully I had bagged and numbered them when I took them out) Still clattering at idle.  Noise completely goes away at 1500RPM.  Engine has good oil pressure at all RPM ranges. I have no clue what is causing this. Here is the history of my build:

1.  Engine was run without oil (previous owner)
2.  Test ran the motor and it seamed to run okay (don't remember a clatter)
3.  Found bearing material in the pan so I took it apart.
4.  The cam and cam bearings were trashed
5.  crank bearings were okay but worn
6.  Rod bearings looked reusable
7.  Had the block hot tanked inspected and dingle ball honed
8. ​Installed all new bearings and rings 
9.  Installed new stock cam
10.  Put the engine back together now it clatters at low RPM

I am at a loss any ideas would be appreciated.  Have a listen to the video



 

     Thread Starter
 

7/10/2021 7:49 PM  #24


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Original lifters?! (I saw where you installed new roller cam)
Since it initially sounded good and now the tick-tick is back, that may mean the lifters are collapsing/leaking down(won't hold oil)...........My best guess
6sally6
At least it will keep you at the top of page.


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

7/10/2021 7:54 PM  #25


Re: 351W rocker clatter

6sally6 wrote:

Original lifters?! (I saw where you installed new roller cam)
Since it initially sounded good and now the tick-tick is back, that may mean the lifters are collapsing/leaking down(won't hold oil)...........My best guess
6sally6
At least it will keep you at the top of page.

Both the OEM original roller lifters and the new roller lifters are resulting in the same issue.  Maybe what I am hearing is not valve train noise?  I have already ruled out an exhaust leak.

     Thread Starter
 

Board footera


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