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3/21/2023 4:46 PM  #1


stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

... with OEM roller lifters in a roller block?  I cant see why it would matter as long as the dog-bones are installed correctly.   Why would the cam care if it is OEM roller lifter or linked roller lifers?  Am I missing something, please let me know what you know and more importantly why it will or will not work.  

1995 351W  


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3/21/2023 4:55 PM  #2


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

There is those with a lot more knowledge than me that will chime in, but I believe the base circle of the cam is different and the lifter bores are different.

I went through all of this years ago when I built my 393 out of a non-roller block and paid big bucks for the conversion lifters and cam.

 

3/21/2023 7:49 PM  #3


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

I would think the important thing that would matter is would the oil hole be too far down in the lifter bore.   If using a roller cam and lifters in a non roller block would cause the oiling hole to either breach the top or be so close to the top excessive oil bleed off results, then it stands to reason that potentially the same problem could exist on the bottom, and that clearance need be checked.   That said, given all the lifter designs I have recently studied, I severely doubt it would even begin to be a problem.

Next potential problem would be if the dog bones stay fully engaged on the lifter.  Is that clearance going to potentially be a problem?

Otherwise,  if all clearances check out, you are still going to need custom push rod lengths.

So why use a reduced base cam in a roller block?  Just happen into some parts?   I ran across someone selling a reduced base cam on marketplace with lifters, spiders and dog bones in the quad cities last week for a great price, and by the time I talked myself into it, the ad was already gone.


If multiple things can go wrong, the one that will go wrong will be the one that causes the most damage.
 

3/21/2023 9:18 PM  #4


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

I had a reduced basecircle roller cam in my 69 non-roller 351w block. It used stock Ford roller lifters and dog bones and spider.   The reason for the reduced circle is to let the lifters sit lower in their bores so the oil holes line up and the dog bones fit at the right depth.

That said, a reduced basecircle cam in a roller block would make the flat sides on the lifters disappear down into the taller bores, negating the dogbones being able to do their job. I do not see any reason why one might want to do this.

With a roller block, the big advantage is being able to run the normal size cam. The larger the cam base circle, the less stress on the lifters.


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3/22/2023 5:07 AM  #5


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

I also thought one of the reasons for a reduced base circle cam was also to keep the cam lobes from contacting the connecting rod bolts.  Considering the low deck height of a 5.0 and the rod angularity of a stroker it seems they would have the same issue as a SBC in this area IF using stock style con rods.  That reason in recent years is kind of a moot point since most guys building strokers are using kits that have aftermarket capscrew rods which are profiled to clear the cam. 

 

3/22/2023 5:17 AM  #6


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

I agree with the others.  You would have an oiling issue.  You would have the opposite issue trying to use dog bones and matching cam in a non roller block.  I don’t even think you can buy lifters that would allow you to use a retrofit cam in a roller block.

 

3/22/2023 8:23 AM  #7


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

MS wrote:

I had a reduced basecircle roller cam in my 69 non-roller 351w block. It used stock Ford roller lifters and dog bones and spider. The reason for the reduced circle is to let the lifters sit lower in their bores so the oil holes line up and the dog bones fit at the right depth.

That said, a reduced basecircle cam in a roller block would make the flat sides on the lifters disappear down into the taller bores, negating the dogbones being able to do their job. I do not see any reason why one might want to do this.

With a roller block, the big advantage is being able to run the normal size cam. The larger the cam base circle, the less stress on the lifters.

That is both exactly the kind of info I was looking for and NOT what I wanted to hear!  There are tons of flat tappet cam options, tons of roller "retrofit" cam options but not very many non retrofit roller cam options.  Of the few I have to choose frome most are bone stock or way aggressive.  Several cam manufacturers have exactly the cam specs I want I found a Howards cam that is ideal but not in a non retrofit roller cam.
 


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3/22/2023 11:10 AM  #8


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

Just because a cam isn't listed or the selection seems thin don't assume that's the case.  Cam companies literally have thousands of grinds not in their catalog or online.  I would advise calling Crane's tech line and seeing what's available.  I've bought 2 grinds from Crane that did not show up on Summit, etc., but were the same cost as a listed grind.  If they ground it for someone else, basically its a stock grind.  With millions of car guys likely someone has already ordered a grind for a combination just like yours, and you can reap the benefit of it now being in their system, even though its not listed anywhere to which you have access. 

 

3/22/2023 1:08 PM  #9


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

TKOPerformance wrote:

Just because a cam isn't listed or the selection seems thin don't assume that's the case.  Cam companies literally have thousands of grinds not in their catalog or online.  I would advise calling Crane's tech line and seeing what's available.  I've bought 2 grinds from Crane that did not show up on Summit, etc., but were the same cost as a listed grind.  If they ground it for someone else, basically it's a stock grind.  With millions of car guys likely someone has already ordered a grind for a combination just like yours, and you can reap the benefit of it now being in their system, even though its not listed anywhere to which you have access. 

So I just did a google search for crane cams and it said crane cams US is comp cams.  When I made my camshaft post on 2/09/23 you suggested I contact the companies directly.  I submitted a cam selection request with both Comp and Howards.  I received an automated conformation from both saying my request was received and that was it.  Here we are a month later and I have yet to hear back.  Not happy with that level of customer service!  Im not very keen on giving either of them any of my money.  The cam I really wanted is at Howards but just realized it was "retrofit"  I will call them today to see if they offer it in the stock base circle configuration.  If not I am going to go with a Trick Flow cam as it is affordable and close to the Howard's unit......  As I was making this post I was switching back and forth between the two graphs I generated for the Howard's and Trick Flow cams and it looked like the Howard's cam was about 10 points better all the way around but now that I overlay them they are almost identical.  Howards in green and read and trick flow in yellow and blue


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3/22/2023 1:21 PM  #10


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

Day, I have two Comp cams that I ran in my 5.0.  A XE266 and and XE262, or is it a 264.  Anyway, I ran the 266 for quite a while and it did fine but I was a little concerned with the valve lift, .550" which seemed a bit much for a street driver.  I went to the XE264 from Delta Cams in Washington and had all kinds of vacuum and running issues.  Got mad and put a stock cam back in and still had the issues...turns out to be the PIP pick-up in the dizzy.  Still have the stock cam in it so......
If you have any interest in either of these cams give me a holler.

BB1
 


"you get what you pay for, good work isn't cheap, and there are NO free lunches...PERIOD!"
 

3/22/2023 1:43 PM  #11


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

Bullet Bob wrote:

Day, I have two Comp cams that I ran in my 5.0.  A XE266 and and XE262, or is it a 264.  Anyway, I ran the 266 for quite a while and it did fine but I was a little concerned with the valve lift, .550" which seemed a bit much for a street driver.  I went to the XE264 from Delta Cams in Washington and had all kinds of vacuum and running issues.  Got mad and put a stock cam back in and still had the issues...turns out to be the PIP pick-up in the dizzy.  Still have the stock cam in it so......
If you have any interest in either of these cams give me a holler.

BB1
 

Thanks for the offer, but I am after something a little more mild.  I would prefer to keep the lift closer to .5  The cam I just ordered (I went with the trick flow) is .499" intake and .510" exhaust.
 


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3/22/2023 3:36 PM  #12


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

I wouldn't wait for an email response.  I know its decidedly stone age, but call them.  I've always managed to get a tech at Crane within a couple minutes, if I had to wait at all.  I too have had extremely bad experience with online request form response from at least half the companies I'd submitted them to. 

 

3/22/2023 3:48 PM  #13


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

TKOPerformance wrote:

I wouldn't wait for an email response.  I know its decidedly stone age, but call them.  I've always managed to get a tech at Crane within a couple minutes, if I had to wait at all.  I too have had extremely bad experience with online request form response from at least half the companies I'd submitted them to. 

I called Howards found out most of their cams use a cast billet blank and don't require a steel distributor gear (see my other post) and learned that they would not have blanks to make me a custom grind until June so I ordered the Trick Flow cam.  I lose a little bit of torque and HP but not enough to register on the but-o-meter and it will be here Monday compared to June so I am happy with it.  There tech guy answered right away and was very helpful so they are slightly redeemed but it is still pore customer service to offer an on line cam request and then take well over a month (could be more we will see) to answer it.  Don't offer the service if you don't have the man power to make it happen in a reasonable mount of time.
 


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3/22/2023 4:14 PM  #14


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

I talked to the guys at Howard and they were very helpful.
I eventually went with Delta Cams (also VERY helpful).
That's why I always say.....call 'em and get their advice.
(who else would know "camshaftery"(zata word? better)
Both companys will custom grind cams upon their really good advice at a great price compared to Big Time companies.
6sal6


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3/22/2023 8:15 PM  #15


Re: stupid question time: can you use a "retrofit" roller camshaft...

If you’re up for calling and emailing, try Brent Lykins Motorsports. He should be able to help you out.


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

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