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4/06/2018 7:18 PM  #1


Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

A few weeks back Bullet Bob was posting about his "issues" while traveling to FWB to the bash last year. Driver side A-arm most nearly "come-off" while he and Jean were rolling along at" west-coast-cruis'in speeds" in excess of  75+ mph. Upon examination of his nutz (on the arm)...hmmmmmmmmmmmm"nutz-on-the-arm...interesting!http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/confused.png
..they had most nearly come off (at speed) and the A-arm coulda-woulda failed and they coulda-woulda expired on the side of a lonely New Mexico ditch or sump'in!!!!http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png

Well.......as we all know "us-guyz" are so in tuned with our "ridez" we can tell when sump'in ain't zakley right. My hot rod just wasn't steering like it always had. I had to keep a tiny amount of pressure on the stern-wheel to keep it going straight down the road. When I stopped and backed up to come back home I heard a loud  ker-klunk!! I drove home anyway(I ain't skeered'uh nuth'in!http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/shout.png
)
I'll cut to the chase..........all my shims in the front part of my driver side A-arm (got that?!http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/errr.png
)  had fallen out and landed in the "shim-catcher-tray" Ford so thoughtfully  designed into the early Mustangs. Nut was just fanger tight....the rear one was very loose too.http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/shocked.png

Check your nutz boyz......it could save your a$$!!!http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png
http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/grin.png


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

4/06/2018 7:54 PM  #2


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Sounds like you was about to "get busy dying " but you outsmarted fate itself. I'm going to check my nuts!...tomorrow...in the garage...the ones on the car.


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
 

4/07/2018 6:56 AM  #3


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

I would be curious to know if they were lock nuts or not.

 

4/07/2018 8:26 AM  #4


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

my hero  ?? Double entendre and a little  innuendo    nice work,  

 

4/07/2018 8:38 AM  #5


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

6sally6 wrote:

he and Jean were rolling along at" west-coast-cruis'in speeds" in excess of  75+ mph.

 
What? Maybe 75 kilometers per hour. Miles per hour, no way, I was following him 


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, FMX, Armstrong  steering.
 

4/07/2018 11:55 AM  #6


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Aren't those nuts supposed to be the Stover style lock nuts?  They are a pain to use in tight spaces, but they shouldn't come loose!

 

4/07/2018 12:14 PM  #7


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Time to fire your alignment guy!

 

4/07/2018 1:28 PM  #8


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

TimC wrote:

Aren't those nuts supposed to be the Stover style lock nuts?  They are a pain to use in tight spaces, but they shouldn't come loose!

 
That's what I use. A pain yes, but I wouldn't do it any other way.


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, FMX, Armstrong  steering.
 

4/07/2018 4:33 PM  #9


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

I see things a little different. The nuts are still just as tight as they were when installed, but the greasy, or worse, taped together, shims have managed to move out of position.

When a thick stack of shims is installed, only one edge of the bolted connection is clamped tight. The other edge is loose to begin with. The only way to avoid that is to tightem them so tight that the pivot shaft bends enough to tighten flat. That just doesn’t happen. The shim stacks need to be about equal thickness in order to survive. Since we like additional caster with today’s tire and wheel designs, the front bolt usually gets more shims than the rear stack.  That, along with a stack of mismatched shims (whatever the alignment guy could get his hands on) and topped off with a don’t care attitude about how the shims fit, will allow them to squirm out of position. Taping them together with electrical tape or applying grease to hold them in position until tightened are sure to let them come loose.

A big help to cure this issue would be a tapered spacer to go between the bushing shaft and the shock tower. To install one, you would need to align it, measure the angle, and then install the tapered spacer.
A more perfect fix is to rotate the uca shaft 90 degrees and install the bolts in slotted holes. (Like a Mustang II front end used). That would allow adjustment without having to put the shaft in a bind. I drew up a design for this about ten years ago, bought the materials to do it and then got too lazy to build it.

If using a stock type uca, that seems to be the best way to fix it. Later models used adjustable lower strut rods and control arms, which is also a possibility for retrofit to cure the problem.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

4/07/2018 6:28 PM  #10


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

MS wrote:

I see things a little different. The nuts are still just as tight as they were when installed, but the greasy, or worse, taped together, shims have managed to move out of position.

When a thick stack of shims is installed, only one edge of the bolted connection is clamped tight. The other edge is loose to begin with. The only way to avoid that is to tightem them so tight that the pivot shaft bends enough to tighten flat. That just doesn’t happen. The shim stacks need to be about equal thickness in order to survive. Since we like additional caster with today’s tire and wheel designs, the front bolt usually gets more shims than the rear stack. That, along with a stack of mismatched shims (whatever the alignment guy could get his hands on) and topped off with a don’t care attitude about how the shims fit, will allow them to squirm out of position. Taping them together with electrical tape or applying grease to hold them in position until tightened are sure to let them come loose.

A big help to cure this issue would be a tapered spacer to go between the bushing shaft and the shock tower. To install one, you would need to align it, measure the angle, and then install the tapered spacer.
A more perfect fix is to rotate the uca shaft 90 degrees and install the bolts in slotted holes. (Like a Mustang II front end used). That would allow adjustment without having to put the shaft in a bind. I drew up a design for this about ten years ago, bought the materials to do it and then got too lazy to build it.

If using a stock type uca, that seems to be the best way to fix it. Later models used adjustable lower strut rods and control arms, which is also a possibility for retrofit to cure the problem.

Soooooo putting lock-tite on the bolts did ...'absolutely nuth'in!' (say it-say it-say it again...umppp good god ya'll)
What you said make sense though.
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
     Thread Starter
 

4/07/2018 9:26 PM  #11


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Get RV6 to tighten them .... saw him do BB's .... those suckers were never fallin out. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png

I sorta remember a conversation on keepin them tight at FWB with BB, RPM and RV6. Jack was also involved, so my recallin is suspect.
Maybe Bob, Bob or Gary can remember better than I, but I think Gary had an idea that I thought was good at the time.
Just can't recall it. ........... did I mention that Jack was there too?
 


"Those telephone poles were like a picket fence"
 

4/08/2018 8:36 AM  #12


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

I agree with MS as to the primary cause being the additional caster we want to get in a design that was never meant to have more than a couple of degrees.  This became obvious to me when I aligned the car last week and it was plain to see that with the stock setup the shims would never be properly clamped between the tower and the UCA shaft.   I made notes of the shim pack thicknesses and plan to make some proper wedges to replace most of the shims...leaving just enough for fine tuning.    In the mean time I'll be checking my nuts regularly.

BB


To "Do It Right Once" you must first be prepared to "Do it Over"...and over...and sometimes over again.
 

4/08/2018 6:44 PM  #13


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

I don't know how the early Stangs UCA are attached but from what I gather with the alignment shims they are U shaped and not an enclosed washer. Because of that the clamping force is not all the way around the bolt like such O. There is a different type of washer that I have used to attach airplane propellers using plain nuts called the Nord Lock. I am not sure how it will work however not having the clamping effect all the way around the bolt. Here is a video that can explain it better than I can.   

  https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cDlmbMV9ICU


Sometimes ya just gotta fly low
 

4/08/2018 7:58 PM  #14


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

I wish someone would stamp some inexpensive offset UCA's.  I have offset ones tubular ones on my car, but I really think some stock appearing stamped ones that had the ball joint offset to the rear of the car about .3-.4" would sell.  

Shims are a pain.

 

4/08/2018 8:18 PM  #15


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Bentworker wrote:

I wish someone would stamp some inexpensive offset UCA's.  I have offset ones tubular ones on my car, but I really think some stock appearing stamped ones that had the ball joint offset to the rear of the car about .3-.4" would sell.  

Shims are a pain.

 
Hey MS, where did your DIY on setting up UCA’s go?

 

4/09/2018 5:22 AM  #16


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

I had an idea a while back that as usual, I never did anything with.  If I remember my research correctly, there are some models of Jeeps that have alignment problems.  And the taper of the ball joint was the same.  This was back when we all used to discuss modifying everything, mind you, but I had thought what if a person could modify the control arm to accept those offset ball joints they make for the Jeep?  That could be used in a couple of different ways to alleviate caster or camber issues.   That said, I was also always intrigued by Mustang Steve's idea of modifying the inner shock tower with a way to have the shafts bolt on like a Mustang II.  I gave that one lots of thought, and while I used to like to experiment and build shiz, I am not an engineer, and gave that one up.  

Quite honestly, given all the health issues Ive had to deal with since 2010, Id be happy just to have it all put together in nice stock form(ish).  That is why I bought some Moog lower control arms and new shafts and ball joints and just decided to quit overthinking it.    

just weld the friggin bolt, and throw an offset wrench in the trunk, and pray it will be OK,   Probably about the same odds, as all the other things we take for granted and don't think about driving or riding in an early Mustang.  


If multiple things can go wrong, the one that will go wrong will be the one that causes the most damage.
 

4/09/2018 2:08 PM  #17


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

I know when working in high vibration areas of aircraft we would use safety wire to keep everything from loosening up. Easy to drill some small .032 holes in Nuts or bolts heads to make this happen. Low cost for the safety wire and the drill bits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_wire

 

4/09/2018 3:10 PM  #18


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Mochaman wrote:

I know when working in high vibration areas of aircraft we would use safety wire to keep everything from loosening up. Easy to drill some small .032 holes in Nuts or bolts heads to make this happen. Low cost for the safety wire and the drill bits.

I am a firm believer in safety wire Ed (Machoman) but good Lord how many vertebrae would you fracture installing it in this location. Oh, you are much younger than me. 
 


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, FMX, Armstrong  steering.
 

4/09/2018 4:09 PM  #19


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

The "loose nut" condition is a result of the slippery shim syndrome.  After dealing with it I'm convinced that MS is correct and the only chance of eliminating it with stock components is to make some wedged "base" shims that will provide a solid and square area for the rest of the shims to  be clamped by the UCA shaft.  And...I will be making some before the Heap goes on another major road trip.   PROMISE!!

BB


To "Do It Right Once" you must first be prepared to "Do it Over"...and over...and sometimes over again.
 

4/09/2018 6:44 PM  #20


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Mochaman wrote:

I know when working in high vibration areas of aircraft we would use safety wire to keep everything from loosening up. Easy to drill some small .032 holes in Nuts or bolts heads to make this happen. Low cost for the safety wire and the drill bits.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safety_wire

After MS's explanation of "HOW" the nutz get loose the  safety war won't work!  Like the old political  statement to Bush the elder..."it's the economy, stupid"!............Its the shims Mochaman!
They work loose /start falling out which leaves all kindza slack between the nut and studs. NOT one of Fordz better ideaz.http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/cry.png

6s6 
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
     Thread Starter
 

4/09/2018 8:42 PM  #21


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Didn't you lose your nutzz before 6S6?  I seem to remember something about the strut rods, cause I immediately went out and double nutted mine.


"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right."     Henry Ford
 

4/09/2018 10:03 PM  #22


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Alan wrote:

Didn't you lose your nutzz before 6S6?  I seem to remember something about the strut rods, cause I immediately went out and double nutted mine.

HEY!!! great recall!
Shore did....happened right out side of Fort Smith Ark. Scary feel'in!


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
     Thread Starter
 

4/10/2018 7:04 PM  #23


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

Are yall talking about the two 3/4" nuts in the shock towers  that bolts the upper control arm?

 

4/10/2018 7:08 PM  #24


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

daily driver wrote:

Are yall talking about the two 3/4" nuts in the shock towers  that bolts the upper control arm?

Yes.  I also experienced this when I found shims on the frame “shim shelf” some years ago.


'66 Fastback since July 27, 1981. Springtime Yellow, originally a 200 cu in, 4 speed. Also a '92 LX Coupe, 5.0, 5 speed.
 

4/10/2018 7:42 PM  #25


Re: Check your nuts boyz, something is happen'in!!!!!!!!!

I once got a set of upper control arms with mounting shaft from a supplier in British Columbia. When I went to torque the nuts on the inside of the shock towers the nuts stripped the threads on the mount bolts, every single one of them - -  is there a grade zero bolt?
 The Mustang shop supplier denied any liability even though i sent them one of the faulty studs.
 Onother good reason to check your nutz!


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   “Never trust a fart”
 

Board footera


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