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10/05/2013 5:47 PM  #1


After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

It was good to see/meet people at the BASH.

Now, back to the technical problems.  69 Grande, C6, 2.8 rear, 351 Windsor, 4 bbl Edelbrock, stock fuel pump, MSD 6A ignition, Crane Fireball E-core coil. Ford distributor with magnetic pickup. Premium gasoline

Engine cranks easily, slightly rough idle at 850 rpm when cold but idles well after warmed up.  Acceleration is good when cold throughout the throttle and speed range.  BUT once the car warms up, acceleration produces pinging/detonation/clatter at just about any speed, and also going uphill at constant speed.  When cruising at constant speed (even at 75) there is no clatter; only when I accelerate.  No unusual behavior when decelerating. No backfiring or dieseling.

Sitting in the driveway at rest, it never clatters.

Idle timing is 12 BTDC (warm, 900 rpm, no vacuum)
Idle vacuum at the manifold is 12 psi. I don't know what the cam is.
With no vacuum at the distributor, timing maxes out at 29 BTDC while adding throttle at the carb
I hooked up a vacuum pump to the distributor and pulled a vacuum without opening the throttle. As I increased the vacuum, the engine rpms increased (no, I didn't have a tach with me under the hood and no helper either) and the timing advanced. This maxed out at about 32-34 BTDC (just beyond the scale on the har. bal.) and the vacuum at the distributor was about 20 psi. Further vacuum did not give more advance or increase engine speed.

I have not tried driving the car without the vacuum connected to the distributor.

Can you help me solve the pinging without making the car driving like a slug?

 

10/05/2013 9:10 PM  #2


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

Any smog stuff hooked up to the engine?
Have you tried switching vacuum ports on the carb(for vac advance)?
Do you have an adjustable vac. advance canister?
What kind of thermostat(heat range) you got?
How about plug heat range?
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

10/06/2013 12:20 PM  #3


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

Would someone help PD and me.  I am no mechanic butt(TS) I've read/heard that pinging is from timing being too advanced. I would back it off a few degrees and then drive it, if no better then back it off a few more and try again.  If I am steering you wrong then I am sure someone will chime in and enlighten us both.   Good luck   Mike


66 Vert.  4.6 DOHC, 4R70 Auto, Heidt's M2 frontend
 

10/06/2013 3:15 PM  #4


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's either a timing issue or a temp issue.  I don't know what thermostat I have ("stock"?) but it opens, I get water flow, temp gauge is sitting in the middle.

Spark Plug is Autolite 45.  It looks normal. No deposits, slight toasty brown ceramic, gray/white electrode.

I'm running the ported vacuum, not the constant one.  I did run constant earlier but the pinging was worse.
The carb is a reman Autolite/ Cardone 30-2895 single vacuum, but I don't know if it's adjustable because I don't have any long allen wrenches.  What size? I read 3/32" somewhere, but don't know if it was for Autolite distribs. The distr is twisted such that I wouldn't be able to get a long wrench in (interference with AC compr) and I don't want to take it out until I know whether or not it has adjustable vacuum.  Can someone help with this info?

I did a warm-up drive, got the pinging problem, disconnected and plugged the (ported) vacuum hose.  The acceleration from rest was not as crisp, but seemed okay once I got rolling, and the pinging was gone.  Obviousy, I'm getting too much advance at warmed-up temps.  Is there a problem running without vacuum advance? Will it hurt (or even help) MPGs?  Why doesn't it ping while sitting still?

Thanks...

Last edited by Physics Doc (10/06/2013 3:20 PM)

     Thread Starter
 

10/06/2013 3:21 PM  #5


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

And no smog equipment.

     Thread Starter
 

10/06/2013 4:29 PM  #6


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

What's up Doc?  (Sorry, the devil made me do it!)
The symptoms you describe are the symptoms one would encounter with a partially plugged exhaust system.  Are you running duals, or is there a "y" that joins the two banks to one pipe.  When you are at cruise speed, and you try to accellerate hard, does the car respond as it should?  Or is it the accelleration sluggish and pinging?  Typical partially obstructed exhaust.
Good Luck

 

10/06/2013 4:48 PM  #7


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

The engine in the Vert was formerly in Miss May(65 2+2) and EFI'ed. Easy 22+ MPG running Interstates, regular gas, No pinging.
Now in the 73 Vert, carbed, running same trany & 3.25 as was 2+2, MPG is 17.3
And it 's always pinged on acceleration. Before I set out for the Bash, we determined the pinging was due to too much total advance. I upped the octane of fuel for the trip. No pinging to speak of. I will however get an advance limiter kit, so I can go back to regular.
Even better, I have the 24lb inj, 75mm MAF, cast GT40 EFI set up, I used on the engine while in the 2+2, cept harness. 2+2 w/331 is still injected, though optimized fer the 331. It don't ping either.

Synopsys - check for total advance w/vac advance

Tubo


If it ain't broke, I haven't modified it Yet
 

10/06/2013 5:41 PM  #8


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

"And now a word from your cam/ignition doctor!"
Doc........take a couple of asprin..never mind.
I think its in the vacuum advance. (Cause it went away with it dis-connected!) Here's what I'd do.....
Pull the distrib and "re-stab" it so the vacuum advance can is more accessable,more toward the front of the engine. You may have to re-clock your wires so no.1 is aligned with the pointy end of the distrib button.  You're gonna need a long enough allen wrench to go up inside the hole where the vacuum hose fits.  IF its adjustable you will save a few bucks,if knott....its a good time to order one from Summit/Steves Mustang......Pretty cheap really.
I'd start off with the adjustment about mid way and do a test drive and screw it in a couple of turns and see what happens........if no good screw it out a few turns....until you get it to not ping with the vacuum hooked up. "theysay" once you get the vav.advance really tuned in.....car will run better and you should pick up a few MPG.
The reason it won't ping in the driveway????......There is no load on the engine. Simple when you think about it.
Another option would be take it to a shop that can set up distribs on a distributor machine.
Let us know what happens!
6sal6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

10/06/2013 6:51 PM  #9


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

I think your initial timing is too much. The old Ford spec for your engine (351) calls for 6 degrees. My '68 with a 302 J-code also calls for 6 degrees and the most I could ever do without ping was 10 degrees and that was when you could still get 'real' leaded premium. Mine is sitting at 8 degrees now and seems to be O.K.

 

10/06/2013 8:26 PM  #10


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

Your description of your plug's color sounds perfect, so I doubt you have any carbon buildup in the combustion chamber. The other classic diagnosis is too much total advance. Since you are using what passes for premium these days, it sounds like you have way too much advance. How old is your balancer? The outer ring with the timing marks may have slipped. It's a lot of work, but finding true TDC with a screw-in stop will answer the question. Disconnect the battery and hand turn the engine please.

 

10/06/2013 9:17 PM  #11


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

I ran an adjustable vacuum advance on the original distributor on my Cobra.  The adjusting screw would back out on its own over time giving me over 50 degrees total under no load on the highway - no ping but it would start to buck a bit.  A few turns on the hex would get it back to where it was supposed to be but it kept doing it so went another direction.  The adjustable units are nice because you can tune you total advance (mech plus vac) for optimum conditions.  You can check your total pretty well when on the driveway by keeping the vac. line attached and run the engine up to about 3000 RPM and hold it steady.  Then disconnect and plug the vac. line and check again at the same RPM.  That will give yout a good approximation of the total vac. advance.  Then check your curb idle versus 3000 RPM to verify your mechanical.  This often helps to identify broken springs or rusty centrifugal weights if the mech advance does not work right.  If you have made engine mods, it is not a bad idea to get your distributor "curved" to match the motor.  A bit of a dying art but there are a few around that can still do this properly.  I just had my Mallory dual point (pertronix conversion) curved to my motor and looking forward to seeing how it runs - if an whenever it actually does run.  A hot plug can also cause your symptoms but from your read on the plugs I think you are running the right heat range.

 

10/07/2013 7:19 PM  #12


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

I'm making progress.  Thanks for everybody throwing in their expertise, too.  Lots of good tech stuff here.

I checked at O'Reilly's and they had the same Model dist. in stock, so we pulled out some allen keys and found that a 1/8" would engage the advance adjustment.  I went home and tried a 1/8"...it wouldn't even go in the hole! Tried a 7/32" and nothing....hmmm...let me try 3 mm. Because it was on a big flip-out set of keys, it wouldn't fit, so  I got over my "leave it put together" anxiety and pulled the distributor (after making many marks) and restabbed it in a better position for the vacuum hole.  The 3 mm fit and engaged something.  Oh, wait...what are my current settings.  Using a vacuum pump I tested that the advance arm immediately started moving with any vacuum at all (< 1"Hg) and was fully in at 13".  A turn CCW and it's coming in a little later.  I made several turns and got it to 5"Hg before it started advancing, and it took about 20" before full advance.  Time for a test drive.

Overall, it solved the pinging problem.  AFter a good warmup period I cruised several miles under different load conditions with no ping except for extreme acceleration at high speed.  A cruising accel from 60 to 70 was nice and smooth.  The one problem is a brief sag when starting from rest until the engine hits about 1200 rpm.  I'm idling in gear at 900.  I probably need to turn the vacuum back CW a little bit so it comes in earlier, but that's a detail adjustment now.  My big problem is solved.

Now, if I can just get the base timing down a few degrees.  I did check the timing marks this summer, and AFAICT, the 0 BTDC mark is true.  I did not have an "official" piston stop, but I did use the same technique with fine pencil marks on sticks in #1 and masking tape on the balancer .  I actually did not look at the numbers on the balancer until I was through making marks.  I was pleasantly surprised that 0 was dead center between the tape marks.

     Thread Starter
 

10/07/2013 7:24 PM  #13


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

Way to hang in there and good update..........you'll get this issue resolved soonest

 

10/07/2013 10:13 PM  #14


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

You might also be finding a hole in your mixture off idle related to the adjustment of the accelerator pump or even the sqirter size.  You may also be slightly lean on the mixture.  Try opening the two idle mixtures about 1/8 turn and try it again.  Without a dyno looking at A/F ratio it is hard to know whether you are fighting timing versus mixture.  A hesitation like that is also seen when you connect your advance to manifold vacuum versus the timed port on the carb.  When you hit the gas when connected to manifold vac, you loose the advance and it falls on its face - which I learned from inexperience.

 

10/08/2013 5:13 AM  #15


Re: After the BASH, pinging on the interstate (well, before the BASH, too)

Maybe you got a tank of bad fuel after filling up.

Steve69

 

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