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7/15/2021 9:51 AM  #51


Re: 351W rocker clatter

I have a Melling Hi-Volume oil pump (as I have used in previous engine builds).


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

7/22/2021 6:21 PM  #52


Re: 351W rocker clatter

IT WASN"T THE OIL PUMP 

I installed the new pump today.  I went with a milling high volume and there is no change at all.  Clatter at idle smooths out at 1500 RPM.  I don't know where to go from here.  I did notice one other thing: when I run an engine on my run stand I don't like to leave fuel in the carb because I don't know when I will run it again.  To drain the carb I shut off the fuel and let the engine run until the carb is empty.  When the AFR leaned out  as the carb was almost out of fuel (could read it on my gage) the clatter went away for the last 30 seconds before the engine died.  Could it be something with the pistons and connecting rods?  I reused the originals and just put new rings on the pistons.  Unless someone has another fantastic idea about the only other thing I can try is to put a different set of heads on it.  Boat anchor is sounding better all the time!!

     Thread Starter
 

7/22/2021 6:25 PM  #53


Re: 351W rocker clatter

You have a real head-scratcher there, sir.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

7/23/2021 6:24 AM  #54


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Are the pivots symmetrical on stock rocker arms?

Perhaps there is contact at base of rocker arms to pivot pedestal?

Did you find any debris inside any of the lifters?

 

7/23/2021 11:39 AM  #55


Re: 351W rocker clatter

MS wrote:

 
Get more powerful stereo?

Best advice ever!!!!
 
Daze,
I hate to see you are having this many problems. It sounds like valve train noise to me as well. Rocker hitting spring? Bind where pushrod meets rocker arm? Push rod connecting head? Rocker hitting valve cover are all suspect and you have worked through some of them. Are they any witness marks…. Something making that much noise is going to make a mark.
 
Since the PO run it without oil for who knows how long, what condition are the rocker arms in? I think that pivot point will be a high load area that goes metal to metal real fast with no oil. Here is a link to a new pedestal.
 
Pedestal for rocker
 
Are the groves in yours that well defined? If not, they could be starving for oil at low RPM’s. 


John  -- 67 Mustang Coupe 390 5 speed
 

7/23/2021 12:01 PM  #56


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Nos681 wrote:

Are the pivots symmetrical on stock rocker arms?

Perhaps there is contact at base of rocker arms to pivot pedestal?

Did you find any debris inside any of the lifters?

 No debris and everything looks good.

Bolted to Floor wrote:

I hate to see you are having this many problems. It sounds like valve train noise to me as well. Rocker hitting spring? Bind where pushrod meets rocker arm? Push rod connecting head? Rocker hitting valve cover are all suspect and you have worked through some of them. Are they any witness marks…. Something making that much noise is going to make a mark.
 
Since the PO run it without oil for who knows how long, what condition are the rocker arms in? I think that pivot point will be a high load area that goes metal to metal real fast with no oil. 

 
Are the groves in yours that well defined? If not, they could be starving for oil at low RPM’s. 

When I rebuilt the heads I inspected everything and it all looked good.  When I recently changed out the springs (hoping they were the problem) I inspected the rockers looking for contact points and couldn't find any.

     Thread Starter
 

7/23/2021 4:03 PM  #57


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Have you tried using a mechanics stethoscope to help pinpoint where the noise is coming from?

Just a thought, maybe 'piston slap'.  In the last 30 seconds with the engine leaning out, I believe the power would be reduced possibly enough not to cause the piston to rock back a forth in the cylinder (?).  As I said, just a thought.


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

7/24/2021 6:33 AM  #58


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Any metal showing up in oil?

 

7/24/2021 8:16 AM  #59


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Nos681 wrote:

Any metal showing up in oil?

 There was the smallest amount of iron grit in the bottom of the pan but I attributed that to the new rings.

     Thread Starter
 

7/24/2021 10:04 AM  #60


Re: 351W rocker clatter

This is my opinion only.  I do not know for sure. But I have never seen any metal particles coming out of any new engine I have ever built.

All those shavings you have seen pictures of on my 427 magnetic drainplug were the result of a catastrophic lifter failure and my laziness of not having done a 100% teardown to clean it all out. And I shall suffer the long term consequences.

Quoting MustangSteve
“A new engine should not have any metal particles coming from any internal parts!!!”

The only metal particles coming from a new engine build are coming from stuff that was left inside by the machining process or crap the builder left in there during assembly.

It is so important to clean, clean and re-clean prior to assembly, including all rough cast areas and inside all block oil passages, including passages in the crank.  No, you cannot clean those passages with the end plugs installed.

Daze, this is not directed at you, but rather a general statement. I know you were simply dealing with a used engine that should have gone together easily and worked fine. “It was running when I parked it” syndrome that took a bad turn.  Apply MS Law, as usual.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

7/24/2021 11:07 AM  #61


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Its time to check for a bad piston wrist pin.   Get a spray bottle and put some water in it.  Get your engine running then lightly spray a fine mist over the carb but don't let the engine die.   If it gets quiet temporarily, you have a bad wrist pin.   An old timer showed me that several years ago.   When a pin goes bad the piston is slapping the cylinder side to side.  The water temporarily lubricates that.


If multiple things can go wrong, the one that will go wrong will be the one that causes the most damage.
 

7/24/2021 3:44 PM  #62


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Greg B wrote:

Its time to check for a bad piston wrist pin.   Get a spray bottle and put some water in it.  Get your engine running then lightly spray a fine mist over the carb but don't let the engine die.   If it gets quiet temporarily, you have a bad wrist pin.   An old timer showed me that several years ago.   When a pin goes bad the piston is slapping the cylinder side to side.  The water temporarily lubricates that.

Thanx Greg!!!!!......Great tip!!
6sal6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

7/24/2021 6:07 PM  #63


Re: 351W rocker clatter

MS wrote:

This is my opinion only. I do not know for sure. But I have never seen any metal particles coming out of any new engine I have ever built.

All those shavings you have seen pictures of on my 427 magnetic drainplug were the result of a catastrophic lifter failure and my laziness of not having done a 100% teardown to clean it all out. And I shall suffer the long term consequences.

Quoting MustangSteve
“A new engine should not have any metal particles coming from any internal parts!!!”

The only metal particles coming from a new engine build are coming from stuff that was left inside by the machining process or crap the builder left in there during assembly.

It is so important to clean, clean and re-clean prior to assembly, including all rough cast areas and inside all block oil passages, including passages in the crank. No, you cannot clean those passages with the end plugs installed.

Daze, this is not directed at you, but rather a general statement. I know you were simply dealing with a used engine that should have gone together easily and worked fine. “It was running when I parked it” syndrome that took a bad turn. Apply MS Law, as usual.

I disagree with this. A new engine will make metal as the engine breaks in. Rings have to seat, bearings have to seat, flat tappet cams have to seat. These parts must wear against each other to do this, hence metal is made. Take an oil analysis at 500 miles run time and you'll be surprised at the results; a lot of metal is flowing around in the oil, although it is microscopic.
When the oil filter is cut open and examined there should not be a lot of metal in the filter pleats. If there is something is amiss. Shiny oil is another cause for worry. 


Gary Zilik - Pine Junction, Colorado - 67 Coupe, 289-4V, T5
 

7/24/2021 8:17 PM  #64


Re: 351W rocker clatter

There is some information about the 87 heads in this write up about the B cam.

Hopefully none applies to your engine.

https://www.foxstang.com/whats-best-cam-5-0/

 

7/25/2021 9:17 AM  #65


Re: 351W rocker clatter

RV6 wrote:

MS wrote:

This is my opinion only. I do not know for sure. But I have never seen any metal particles coming out of any new engine I have ever built.

All those shavings you have seen pictures of on my 427 magnetic drainplug were the result of a catastrophic lifter failure and my laziness of not having done a 100% teardown to clean it all out. And I shall suffer the long term consequences.


Quoting MustangSteve
“A new engine should not have any metal particles coming from any internal parts!!!”

The only metal particles coming from a new engine build are coming from stuff that was left inside by the machining process or crap the builder left in there during assembly.

It is so important to clean, clean and re-clean prior to assembly, including all rough cast areas and inside all block oil passages, including passages in the crank. No, you cannot clean those passages with the end plugs installed.

Daze, this is not directed at you, but rather a general statement. I know you were simply dealing with a used engine that should have gone together easily and worked fine. “It was running when I parked it” syndrome that took a bad turn. Apply MS Law, as usual.

I disagree with this. A new engine will make metal as the engine breaks in. Rings have to seat, bearings have to seat, flat tappet cams have to seat. These parts must wear against each other to do this, hence metal is made. Take an oil analysis at 500 miles run time and you'll be surprised at the results; a lot of metal is flowing around in the oil, although it is microscopic.
When the oil filter is cut open and examined there should not be a lot of metal in the filter pleats. If there is something is amiss. Shiny oil is another cause for worry. 

Microscopic, I can agree with. Visible metal shavings, I would be greatly alarmed.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

7/25/2021 12:11 PM  #66


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Might be a stupid question, but you're using the standard port in the front driver's side to check oil pressure right?

Anyway, barring some weird lifter oiling problem I think there has got to be something wrong with the valvetrain geometry. I know you've gone over it, but there's either slack or no oil. No other reason the lifters/rockers would make noise. 

 

7/25/2021 3:07 PM  #67


Re: 351W rocker clatter

The small amount of metal in the pan was a very fine grit and there wasn't very much of it.  There are no metallic sparkles or any noticeable metal in the oil at all.  This was just something I noticed when I removed the pan to change the pump.  I will chock that up to a malfunctioning tool to engine interface.  I thought I cleaned the block well enough but clearly not.  Now that I think about it I bet it was from them magnafluxing the block.  I agree with everyone else this sounds like rocker clatter.  I guess the next step is to change out the heads.  When it comes to engine builds I still have a lot to learn.  I have successfully built two engines (289 in the Mustang and 302 in my Galaxie) but in both cases I had someone who knew what they were doing standing over my shoulder helping me.

     Thread Starter
 

7/26/2021 1:28 PM  #68


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Got an old valve cover you can waste?   If you are convinced its the valve train, cut a center slot out of an old valve cover, then you have access to see what is going on with it running without making a huge mess.   You can push on each rocker individually with a screwdriver until you isolate the problem cylinder.

You can also try removing one plug wire at a time with the engine running to see if it quiets down.


If multiple things can go wrong, the one that will go wrong will be the one that causes the most damage.
 

7/26/2021 3:04 PM  #69


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Ifnitweremine, I’d be crappin my pants. Time to send an oil sample for analysis to find out what the “f” is going on.


Good work ain't cheap, Cheap work ain't good!   Simple Man
 

10/10/2021 6:47 PM  #70


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Only took me two months to get back to this project!  Just to recap here is what I have done: Reassembled 351W engine after ball-honing cylinders, new rings, new bearings, rebuilt E7TE heads with. .035 milled off for increased compression, gasket matching port job and smoothing around valve guides, new springs, good used valves and OEM non adjustable rockers.  Fired it up and it clattered like a diesel under 1500RPM.  Shimmed rockers, no improvement, went with stock springs, no improvement, replaced lifters, no improvement, tested oil flow to the rockers all tested well.   

UPDATE:
Decided to remove the heads and install another set I have that were stock but in excellent shape.  Got that buttoned up today and fired it up no change 😭😭 still clatters under 1500RPM but sounds fantastic above 1500RPM.  At this point I feel I can rule out valve train noise.  I tried GregB's water trick to test the wrist pins and didn't get any change.  Then I covered the carb with my hands and starved it for air to the point where it just barley stayed running.  THIS MADE THE NOISE GO AWAY As soon as my hands came off the carb clatter came back.  I am thinking that by starving it for air it may have had a similar result to Greg's water test??  Any other ideas would be appreciated.

     Thread Starter
 

10/11/2021 9:57 AM  #71


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Can't tell where the sound is coming from so anything I could offer is a complete guess but to me the sound in your video seems like a chain being dragged across metal. 

BobE asked this before but no response was posted so, have you tried using a stethoscope to find out where the noise is coming from?  You might at least be able to localize it to an area.

Last edited by John Ha (10/11/2021 9:57 AM)


Founding Member of the Perpetually Bewildered Society
 

10/11/2021 11:07 AM  #72


Re: 351W rocker clatter

John Ha wrote:

but to me the sound in your video seems like a chain being dragged across metal. 

.

From the video...it doesn't look like the engine is "struggling" when it makes the noise OR..."smooth-out" when the RPM's are increased so that tells me nothing seems to be binding in the engine.
Dragging/rubbing timing chain COULD make some metal debris also.
A gear drive (although pretty noisy in its own right!) would certainly eliminate the possibility of a timing chain sliding on something.
Just a guess and pretty EZ to check with an engine on the stand!
6sally6
 


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

10/11/2021 3:48 PM  #73


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Daze, Just something that hasn't been mentioned. Have you changed the fuel pump, and checked the bolts on the eccentric for the pump?


Member since 2006, Mustang Steve has always been my homepage. 67 FastBack..Rebuilt engine is my coffee table
 

10/11/2021 4:10 PM  #74


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Quicksilver wrote:

Daze, Just something that hasn't been mentioned. Have you changed the fuel pump, and checked the bolts on the eccentric for the pump?

Good thought but it’s electric

     Thread Starter
 

10/13/2021 4:37 AM  #75


Re: 351W rocker clatter

Probably something loose and rattling on your engine stand


Founding Member of the Perpetually Bewildered Society
 

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