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So far, high pressure made one more HP and 20 psi more pressure.
High volume made exact same HP and more pressure and more volume.
So far, the statements about HV pump taking more power to run are disproven.
My vote goes to using a HV pump. I used one on my 331 and the gauge reads higher at idle than the standard pump on my 427 stroker.
The horsepower variations, or lack thereof, are surprising.
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What about the deal-e-oh about how it put more stress on the oil pump drive shaft?
Everybody "sez"....SBF has a very efficient oiling system and anything more than a stock pressure pump is just 'bling'!?
(including MS Steve)
6s6
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There's a couple things worth pointing out about that test. First, it was on a 440 Mopar. What works on one engine doesn't necessarily translate to other engines. Though I will note that the 440 uses the same style oil pump as a SBF (more on that later).
Second, it we are honest, most of us dead set against HV pumps on engines that don't really need them due to the idea that they waste HP hold that belief because a lot of people we think have a lot more knowledge than we do have written that in books, told us that at the machine shop, etc. Possibly this is the illusion of knowledge and not actual, empirically tested knowledge, and that's exactly how urban legends get started.
Third, consider that many, many things that get repeated and passed down as proven fact came from peoples' experience with the SBC. I know some guys get salty about that as Ford guys, but the industry standard for performance almost since it was introduced has been the 350 Chevy. Where this is interesting is the SBC use a different oil pump design than the SBF (or the 440 Mopar). Possibly the idea that HV pumps waste power comes from the fact that they do in SBCs (purely conjecture mind you, but where there is difference there is also possibility).
In summation I also need to point out that this test is extremely narrow in its focus. It looks only at the effect of various pumps on power. It did not consider loading on the oil pump drivehsaft/distributor gear/distributor gear roll pin. It did not consider the effect on oil temperature. It did not consider the effect on oil aeration. It did not consider the effect of moving oil to the top end of the engine at the expense of the bottom end. Even if the test is valid and disproves the power wasting argument there's a lot more to the oiling system than just how much power it uses, and thus a lot more reasons why a HV pump is probably unnecessary and possibly introduces greater risk of failure than a standard volume pump.
My final thought is that like anything else the oil pump should be matched to the build. SBFs don't typically have oiling problems. HV pumps are most effective in engines that have oiling issues, because they need more oil to survive at higher RPM (Pontiacs, AMCs, etc.). In an typical SBF a HV pump is a solution in search of a nonexistant problem. Such "solutions" often cause more issues than they resolve. So, standard bearing clearances, and operating range under 6,500RPM a standard volume pump is going to be just fine. You go to wider clearances for racing, or if the engine is becoming worn out and your oil pressure is low; a HV pump is probably a good idea.
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One thing they pointed out is that the pump can only put as much oil to the engine as the bearing clearances will accept. Once that level is achieved, the rest of the oil goes through the bypass. So, a hv pump can only pump as much as the bearing clearances will accept.
Another interesting thing is the hv and hp pumps actually made MORE HP than the stock pumps. I am wondering if the increased pressure helps pressurize the bearing voids, better centering the crank within its clearances. That would help reduce drag as the crank spins.
I agree that NOBODY REALLY KNOWS what all the effects are. I have never experienced shaft or gear issues. From my personal experience, my oil pressure gauges read higher when using a hv pump, so if I build an engine, it will very likely have an hv pump in it. I wish I had put one in my 427. It reads around 15 psi at idle and 35 at 2,000. I would like more.
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I think a lot of the SBF "gear and dirveshaft" issues simply come from the myriad of camshaft and gear materials. Folks more often than not mismatch the two.
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Before I was getting ragged on for not plasti gaging my bearings the hv pump is what saved my engine. With it I had oil pressure that pegged the gage on the road and was right around middle at idle. I replaced it only because of all the baloney I was reading about a hv pump in a road car. If it adds more HP, maybe I should put it back in.
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Speaking of "oiling more around the bearings 'may' increase HP".....
I understood (might be worng!) that mechanical parts glide along on a microscopically thin layer of oil.
IF....and engine has std bearing clearances 'more oil' would not make it float more or slicker-up the surfaces would it? (one of those.......enough is just enough situations)
Am I out in left field on my thoughts?
The increase in HP statement has me scratch'in too!
6s6
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6sally6 wrote:
Speaking of "oiling more around the bearings 'may' increase HP".....
I understood (might be worng!) that mechanical parts glide along on a microscopically thin layer of oil.
IF....and engine has std bearing clearances 'more oil' would not make it float more or slicker-up the surfaces would it? (one of those.......enough is just enough situations)
Am I out in left field on my thoughts?
The increase in HP statement has me scratch'in too!
6s6
More oil pressure/bleedoff might help keep the crank in the center of the bearing, was my conjecture.
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My first question would be what the "stock" pump was? If its was a parts store brand (likely made in China) my supposition would be that the HV and HP pumps were quality American made with the clearances blueprinted, and likely that's why they made more power.
Now, if it was a quality Melling, etc. then my next suspicion would be that the margin for error on any dyno is more than 1HP, so let's not get carried away thinking "increases" so low are actually measurable and meaningful.
Most sources will say that 20psi at hot idle is all the oil pressure you need. If you've got at least that I wouldn't go trying to reinvent the wheel. Especially if you still have 10psi per 1,000RPM as it revs. Now, I'll admit 15psi would be a bit concerning to me, and I could see where a HV pump might improve that, because if you think about it: the oil galleries are still the same size. Try to force more volume through them it stands to reason pressure goes up. However therein also lies an important point: what we see as pressure is really just a measure of restriction. If your engine has less restriction you would expect lower pressure (I'm remembering something about your 427 being pretty far off stock).
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Just adding to the discussion, my first 289 drag race engine, back in 1970, I was advised to use a HV oil pump. Note that this machine shop mainly dealt in Chevys, and may have been the reason for the recommendation. Since then, I’ve used a Melling HV (and supplied driveshaft) in both race and street engines. I would shift that 289 at 8,000 RPM and never twisted or broke the driveshaft, and used that engine for about 4 years, rebuilding it each winter, but never changed the oil pump, or driveshaft.
My current 351W motor also uses a Melling HV pump, and I used the ARP driveshaft just for piece of mind. This engine will rev to 6,000RPM, and I don’t bring it that high often. The biggest issue I had was that the HV pump is slightly deeper than stock and ‘touched’ the oil pan. I didn’t realize this until a crack was created after a few thousand miles. This is a front sump oil pan to accommodate to MII front suspension. I did not have this issue with any rear sump oil pan I had installed a Melling HV pump.
A note about oil pumps, these are ‘positive displacement’ pumps which means for ever turn of the pump a specific volume of oil is pumped. All positive displacement pumps need a relief valve. The pump’s relief valve regulates the oil pressure, along with the clearances in the engine. Without a relief valve, the pump would be ‘dead ended’, something will have to give, likely the driveshaft would be the ‘weak’ link.
If higher pressure is wanted from the OEM oil pump, one can stack a couple of washers behind the internal relief spring.
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Wasn’t 10w40 used back in the old days for heavy duty uses?
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Nos681 wrote:
Wasn’t 10w40 used back in the old days for heavy duty uses?
I still use it
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I took my 68 out for the first time this year, put about 60 miles on it and remembering this post checked my oil pressure.
I thought I had a Melling standard oil pump in it but after watching at the electric Autometer gauge I have my doubts.
I run 10W40 synthetic and at start up It shows 55#, hot idle in drive is just a tad under 50#.
Now I think I may have a high volume pump, IIRC I did blue print it when I built the 331.
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A few years back when dynoing a race motor we found more HP with the HV pump because it allowed us to have more bearing clearance! So yes I have opened the bearings up a tad.
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