FYI FORD - MustangSteve's Ford Mustang Forum
The Internet's Most Knowledgeable Classic Mustang Information
IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT CLASSIC FORD MUSTANGS, YOU HAVE COME TO THE RIGHT PLACE!
MustangSteve has over 30 years of Mustang experience, having owned 30 of them and restored several others. With the help of other Mustangers, this site is dedicated to helping anyone wanting to restore or modify their Mustang.... THERE ARE NO DUMB QUESTIONS!!!!!
Visit MustangSteve's web site to view some of my work and find details for:
FYIFORD Contributors' PICTURES - Power Brake Retrofit Kits for 65-66 Stangs - Classic Mustang FAQ's by MustangSteve - How to wire in a Duraspark Ignition - Mustang Ride Height Pictures and Descriptions - Steel Bushings to fit Granada Spindles to Mustang Tie Rods - Visit my EBAY store MustangSteve Performance - How to Install Granada Disc Brakes MustangSteve's Disc Brake Swap Page - FYIFORD Acronyms for guide to all the acronyms used on this page - FYIFORD Important information and upcoming events

You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?

10/29/2022 1:10 PM  #1


Power brake question.

On my 66 coupe I have 4 wheel discs. Fronts are 2008 GT, rears 2017 GT. MC is from a 2000 Mustang V6, booster is from a 89 Mustang 4 cylinder. I’ve installed the Mustang Steve power brake conversion. My problem is the pedal rides considerably lower than the clutch pedal and pedal free travel seems excessive. Rears are adjusted per MS instructions. Other than that the brakes work fine it’s just that the pedal seems very close to the floor.
my question is if I were to extend the booster input rod to bring the pedal up even with the clutch so as to have more space above the floor when braking will I be creating another problem?


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
 

10/29/2022 3:44 PM  #2


Re: Power brake question.

I don’t think that will work.  Do you have an adjustable proportioning block?  If so, add more pressure to rears. Turn knob clockwise. Test to be sure rears don’t lock up before fronts. This will firm up the pedal


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

10/29/2022 7:04 PM  #3


Re: Power brake question.

Notwithstanding adjusting the prop block,  what would it hurt to lengthen the push rod,  and why would you not want the clutch and brake pedals at the same static height?

Last edited by Bearing Bob (10/29/2022 7:07 PM)


Bob. 69 Mach 1, 393W, SMOD Toploader, Armstrong  steering, factory AC.
 

10/29/2022 8:24 PM  #4


Re: Power brake question.

Rather than inducing an artificially high brake pedal, I would prefer to find out why the brakes are not functioning as they should.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

10/30/2022 7:32 AM  #5


Re: Power brake question.

Ok, I apologize for a short answer when the question deserves the long version.
Here is the longer version. The MustangSteve 65-66 power brake conversion is designed so the static position of the brake pedal is 1” lower than stock.  The reason is this:  the new pedal has a different ratio. Originally it was 6:1 and now it is approximately 4:1.  That makes the travel required by the pedal to be only 2/3 of what it originally was to get the same master cylinder travel. So, I designed it with the same LOWER travel position as a stock pedal but the 1” lower static position.

The fact that your pedal has some free travel where nothing occurs is concerning, and there are a couple of possibilities that can cause that. 
  First is, of course, air in the system. Be darned sure there is NO AIR still in the system. I’m sure you have bled them, but be sure there are no high spots in the system, no fittings tuned sideways where an internal pocket could trap air and the master cylinder has been properly bench bled.
  Second, but probably should have been first, is you MUST have a properly installed and adjusted parking brake cable connected for those rear brakes to work. You must use the parking brake repeatedly before you bleed the rear brakes or there will be excessive pedal travel. Pull it multiple times until it cannot be pulled any tighter. You can do this under the car by pitting vise-grips on the parking brake lever to make a hand-operated lever. Move the lever as if applying the parking brakes until it won’t tighten the pads any more. Then release the lever. That takes all the slack out of that caliper/pad assembly.  THEN release the parking brake and you can bleed all the air out of it. Not tightening the parking system leaves the piston too far away for a 1” bore master cylinder to fully force it full of fluid. Ok, that should take care of the pedal slop.
  My 66 has a similar setup as yours, but I have Cobra fronts. I have s total of 2” of pedal travel until a hard pedal is achieved.

Now, for the clutch and brake pedal being equal height. When a MustangSteve power brake system assembly with a cable clutch system is sold new, it comes with the static height of the clutch pedal set at exactly the same height as the power brake pedal. This is achieved by copying Ford’s original design for an adjustable clutch pedal stop that was installed on all 1964-1/2 Mustangs and some early 65’s. Why they quit installing it could only have been to save money. All it is, is a slot where the clutch pedal stop bolts onto the pedal support instead of just a bolt hole. If you have the MustangSteve pedal support, that slot is there. You can adjust your clutch pedal static height to any position you want. If you did the MustangSteve conversion on an original pedal support, and you don’t have the factory slot, then you can remove the pedal support and slot the hole downward about 3/4” x 5/16” wide snd then you can adjust your pedal.
  Ok, that begs the question about not having as much pedal travel. To me, having to move a mechanical part a set distance over and over and over is something worth addressing. Do you have mechanical linkage z-bar original setup or the more modern MustangSteve clutch system?
  For cable systems, simply adjust the cable looser and enjoy having less overall pedal travel. You won’t have to lift your leg as high to apply the clutch. And the same goes for the brake. It sits lower to make your leg not have to be lifted so high every time you use it. Later factory power brake Mustangs all enjoyed this feature. The pedal sat about 1” lower than the clutch pedal, from the factory.
  For the antiquated z-bar system that typically required 3/4” of free travel before anything happens, you can enjoy the fact that modern diaphragm type clutches do not require that free travel as long as you use a modern throwout bearing that is capable of turning constantly with the pressure plate. They do require modification of the release lever so they can clip in place. Or, you can just reduce that free travel until you have just a tiny bit instead of alot, and adjust your clutch pedal where it sits a bit lower while still actually engaging the clutch at the same part of its stroke where it used to engage.  It just has less air gap than before. Or you can adjust the lower rod to help reposition the actuation point.
  Hopefully this helps explain why the cable system is a much better system.

I hope this helps you get your brake working properly, and your clutch pedal even to the brake pedal. Adding a longer rod is not an option since the rod is part of the booster. It was always my rule to NOT MODIFY a part that you might have to one day replace due to wear. You want replacement Ford parts that bolt right up. You do not want to have to custom-modify a replacement part in the future.

Let me know if you need more help with this.  I am sure there is another typing project involved somewhere!


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

10/30/2022 9:02 AM  #6


Re: Power brake question.

MS wrote:

Ok, I apologize for a short answer when the question deserves the long version.
Here is the longer version. The MustangSteve 65-66 power brake conversion is designed so the static position of the brake pedal is 1” lower than stock. The reason is this: the new pedal has a different ratio. Originally it was 6:1 and now it is approximately 4:1. That makes the travel required by the pedal to be only 2/3 of what it originally was to get the same master cylinder travel. So, I designed it with the same LOWER travel position as a stock pedal but the 1” lower static position.

The fact that your pedal has some free travel where nothing occurs is concerning, and there are a couple of possibilities that can cause that.
First is, of course, air in the system. Be darned sure there is NO AIR still in the system. I’m sure you have bled them, but be sure there are no high spots in the system, no fittings tuned sideways where an internal pocket could trap air and the master cylinder has been properly bench bled.
Second, but probably should have been first, is you MUST have a properly installed and adjusted parking brake cable connected for those rear brakes to work. You must use the parking brake repeatedly before you bleed the rear brakes or there will be excessive pedal travel. Pull it multiple times until it cannot be pulled any tighter. You can do this under the car by pitting vise-grips on the parking brake lever to make a hand-operated lever. Move the lever as if applying the parking brakes until it won’t tighten the pads any more. Then release the lever. That takes all the slack out of that caliper/pad assembly. THEN release the parking brake and you can bleed all the air out of it. Not tightening the parking system leaves the piston too far away for a 1” bore master cylinder to fully force it full of fluid. Ok, that should take care of the pedal slop.
My 66 has a similar setup as yours, but I have Cobra fronts. I have s total of 2” of pedal travel until a hard pedal is achieved.

Now, for the clutch and brake pedal being equal height. When a MustangSteve power brake system assembly with a cable clutch system is sold new, it comes with the static height of the clutch pedal set at exactly the same height as the power brake pedal. This is achieved by copying Ford’s original design for an adjustable clutch pedal stop that was installed on all 1964-1/2 Mustangs and some early 65’s. Why they quit installing it could only have been to save money. All it is, is a slot where the clutch pedal stop bolts onto the pedal support instead of just a bolt hole. If you have the MustangSteve pedal support, that slot is there. You can adjust your clutch pedal static height to any position you want. If you did the MustangSteve conversion on an original pedal support, and you don’t have the factory slot, then you can remove the pedal support and slot the hole downward about 3/4” x 5/16” wide snd then you can adjust your pedal.
Ok, that begs the question about not having as much pedal travel. To me, having to move a mechanical part a set distance over and over and over is something worth addressing. Do you have mechanical linkage z-bar original setup or the more modern MustangSteve clutch system?
For cable systems, simply adjust the cable looser and enjoy having less overall pedal travel. You won’t have to lift your leg as high to apply the clutch. And the same goes for the brake. It sits lower to make your leg not have to be lifted so high every time you use it. Later factory power brake Mustangs all enjoyed this feature. The pedal sat about 1” lower than the clutch pedal, from the factory.
For the antiquated z-bar system that typically required 3/4” of free travel before anything happens, you can enjoy the fact that modern diaphragm type clutches do not require that free travel as long as you use a modern throwout bearing that is capable of turning constantly with the pressure plate. They do require modification of the release lever so they can clip in place. Or, you can just reduce that free travel until you have just a tiny bit instead of alot, and adjust your clutch pedal where it sits a bit lower while still actually engaging the clutch at the same part of its stroke where it used to engage. It just has less air gap than before. Or you can adjust the lower rod to help reposition the actuation point.
Hopefully this helps explain why the cable system is a much better system.

I hope this helps you get your brake working properly, and your clutch pedal even to the brake pedal. Adding a longer rod is not an option since the rod is part of the booster. It was always my rule to NOT MODIFY a part that you might have to one day replace due to wear. You want replacement Ford parts that bolt right up. You do not want to have to custom-modify a replacement part in the future.

Let me know if you need more help with this. I am sure there is another typing project involved somewhere!

Wow! Now we’re getting somewhere. I understand everything you said except the part about the clutch pedal stop slot thingy. Any chance you have an illustration that would point that out? I like the idea of a lower clutch pedal because at 6’3” and my advancing years the clutch is a little too high. I do have a very effective hump mounted e brake lever and I use it a lot. That said I’ll readdress the rear caliper adjustment as well as the prop valve. I’ve always thought extending the rod would work but I’ve been reluctant to do that because, as you noted, modifying a part can become a real PITA. Thanks for the help.


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
     Thread Starter
 

10/30/2022 9:23 AM  #7


Re: Power brake question.



Do you have the MustangSteve pedal assembly?  If so, the slot is there.  A stock 66 just has a bolt hole, but it can be elongated to provide adjustment. Works best with cable clutch actuation.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

10/30/2022 9:53 AM  #8


Re: Power brake question.

MS wrote:



Do you have the MustangSteve pedal assembly? If so, the slot is there. A stock 66 just has a bolt hole, but it can be elongated to provide adjustment. Works best with cable clutch actuation.

I have the MS cable and bearings but stock 66 pedal assembly. Pretty sure I know what to do. I’m sure it will make sense once I can see it out of the car. Thanks.
 


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
     Thread Starter
 

11/01/2022 3:03 PM  #9


Re: Power brake question.


Clutch pedal stop thingy.


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

11/01/2022 7:32 PM  #10


Re: Power brake question.

To be able to have the clutch pedal static position be lower to match the brake pedal, remove the bolt-on stop from the pedal support and slot the mounting hole about 3/4” downward.  Then you can bolt it back on and adjust the stop so the pedal sits lower.  Be sure the rubber stop is parallel to the pedal piece so they mate together flat.  “A” and “B” need to be flat against each other once adjusted.  You can hold the pedal stop with a crescent wrench to keep it from rotating as you tighten the nut/bolt.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

11/02/2022 7:02 AM  #11


Re: Power brake question.

MS wrote:

To be able to have the clutch pedal static position be lower to match the brake pedal, remove the bolt-on stop from the pedal support and slot the mounting hole about 3/4” downward. Then you can bolt it back on and adjust the stop so the pedal sits lower. Be sure the rubber stop is parallel to the pedal piece so they mate together flat. “A” and “B” need to be flat against each other once adjusted. You can hold the pedal stop with a crescent wrench to keep it from rotating as you tighten the nut/bolt.
My solution was to remove the stop, vs removing the entire assembly, drill the rivet holding the rubber pad, add a piece of 3/8 aluminum under the rubber. Pedals are now even and the lower clutch pedal is much more comfortable.

 


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
     Thread Starter
 

11/02/2022 10:29 AM  #12


Re: Power brake question.

Yep
That works and is certainly alot easier, just not adjustable.  But, the thickness needed could easily be calculated, and it works perfect on your car.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

11/02/2022 1:01 PM  #13


Re: Power brake question.

MS wrote:

Yep
That works and is certainly alot easier, just not adjustable. But, the thickness needed could easily be calculated, and it works perfect on your car.

I just happened to have a chunk of aluminum that it test fit. It filled the gap perfectly so I went with it. 


"anyone that stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty"Henry Ford
     Thread Starter
 

11/02/2022 9:15 PM  #14


Re: Power brake question.

Good thinking!


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

Board footera


REMEMBER!!! When posting a question about your Mustang or other Ford on this forum, BE SURE to tell us what it is, what year, engine, etc so we have enough information to go on.