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I have a 68 Mustang that has been sitting in the garage since 86 according to the license plates. I got it in 2004 and moved it into different enclosed shelter with the intention to “freshen” it up when time permitted. The other day I was under it and found some brand new rust had worked its way through the passenger floor in front and half way up the toe board. The AC/heater drain hose wasn’t stuck through the hole in the floor. The rust goes back to the front of the rear seat. The driver side is still like new. I want to weld the new floor in verses riveting so my question is what type of welding would you suggest? Im thinking if drilling out the spot welds and rewelding the spots back in using the wire type without the gas. I dont know what that is called but the machine looks cheap.
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You'll get a lot of opinions on this but do some google searches. Mig welding on thin sheet metal is difficult - constant cleaning, burn through, etc. Gas welding with .024 wire works well with some practice. I bought separate panels for my floor replacement and did them in sections. With my limited welding skills I overlapped the panels with about 1/2" and used self tapping sheet metal screws to hold them in tight. Since my car was on a rotisserie I did 1/2" stiches on top separated by 1/2" and then stitched the underside at the open areas on top - effectively giving me a full weld. Once welded, I removed all of the sheet metal screws and plug welded those holes. There is a chance that the overlap will allow moisture in someday, I painted it all with epoxy and applied liberal amounts of seam sealer on both sides. Don't take any shortcuts. If you have rust under the seat riser, remove the seat riser and plug weld it back in. I have some pictures of my repairs that I can send via email if you send me a message with your email address.
You'll have a lot of labor hours in this and the cost of a welder that supports gas and can be used effectively on thin sheet metal is a small investment when looking at the total cost of the repair. Gas yes, flux no.
Regardless of the weld method, you'll need to remove all dirt, oil, grease, paint, and rust in the areas that you intend to weld. No weld method will work well if the parts aren't clean. That includes on top and underneath. Dirt on the bottom surface of the floor will spoil your welds on top.
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Doug you're describing a flux core welder. I've never welded with one, but my son who is a crack welder says when using a flux core you need more heat in the weld to get comparable penetration. At least that's what I think I remember him saying. I'd spend a few bucks more and get a 110v mig machine.
Last edited by RPM, aka Bearing Bob (3/15/2024 9:57 PM)
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Let me preface this by saying I learned to weld when I was about 14 on an ancient stick machine. Using that as a frame of reference more modern types of welding seem super easy (no arc starting, etc.).
That said, IMO MIG welding sheet metal is easy (yes, I've successfully stick welded sheet metal). In general its probably the simplest form of welding there is. The machine will come with a guide that will give you your settings for amperage and wire speed based on the thickness of the material you are welding. I can't say its completely idiot proof, but its about as close as it gets. The only other variable would be wire thickness, but the guide will account for that as well. For the sheet metal used in these older cars I would use 0.025" wire.
Personally I would use shielding gas. For steel you can use cheap gas (25% Argon 75% CO2, or possibly just straight CO2). Flux core wire works, but its a lot more like stick welding. You get a fair amount of spatter. Its not very clean, whereas with gas there's basically no spatter. Flux core welds also cool with slag on top which needs to be cleaned off. There's no slag with shielded welding.
Another thing I would advise is invest in an auto darkening helmet. Its one less thing to have to learn technique wise.
A good way to start is to find a local welding supply shop. Even if you don't buy your machine from them (used ones will be cheaper but stick with a name brand like Lincoln or Miller) they can check it over for you and give you advice on what to use for what you're doing. For sheet metal a small machine running on 110 is fine. I can weld up to 1/4" material with my 110 machine. That's going to be plenty for the average hobbyist.
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I agree w/TKO, if you talk with a welding shop ask about the "Hand-held Lazar" welding, I understand it is ideal for thinner metal work, like the sheet metal used on car. And the hand-held versions are not expensive.
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Doug, i have a Lincoln 140 mig that i use for sheet metal. I would definetely go with mig gas over flux core. As RPM said it takes more heat to use the flux core. More heat means more warpage and burn through. When you try to fill the burn holes, you get more heat and warpage. I have not seen a handheld laser that i would trust besides the professional models which are definelty out of the one car fix range. They cost more than the car would be worth.
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Another thing worth noting is that a copper "spoon" is the easiest way to fix a hole with a MIG. These are reasonably cheap at HF, etc. Its just a thick piece of copper on a handle. As you cannot weld copper to steel the copper just acts like a backing that you can in effect weld over. This allows you to more easily weld tacks to the edge of a hole and slowly are carefully join the tacks and fill the void. Trying to fix a hole without one probably just leads to a bigger hole and a lot of choice words.
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The only thing a flux core welder does better than shielding gas, is it's able to weld outside on a windy day.
It's not worth the disadvantages though.
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And...before you start on the car, get some sheet metal and....PRACTICE...PRACTICE...PRACTICE!!
Do as I say...not as I've done!
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Thanks all or the recommendations. I’ve been welding since I was a kid. I learned on Oxy/Acetylene and have mostly worked with thin sheet metal. When heavy duty welding was needed I did ARC welding. I played with wire fed welding many years ago long enough to see how it worked. Some guy set it up for me so I’ll need to learn how to do that. I don't remember if it used gas or not but I did like it. I want to do the welding in my garage with gas because of the less potential for sparks.
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HudginJ3 - I've heard from several older welders that if one can oxy gas weld, you'll do fine with MIG & TIG.
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Couple-a question to axe of yourself......you plan on selling the car ?
does it have carpet and mats on the floor?
is it an EVERYDAY driver or mainly a weekend cruiser/show car?
has the rust compromised the integrity and strength of the car?
ME/I would clean the spot back to good solid metal... using some sheet metal as thick as (or a little thicker) than the stock
stuff and lap weld the daylights out of it. (maybe climb under the car
if ya feel guilty and smear some RTV or spray bedliner on it and call
it good)
By the time it rust back through again.you will be too old to drive...
Any future buyer prolly won't notice it or even know what you did.(OR
care) Why put your-self through the torture of butt-welding it..YOMV
6sally6
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I agree with Sal. That is basically what I did with my floor, although my floors only had a few 'holes'. I got some 16 gauge metal, cut to fit, brazed it in place from the interior, made it as 'clean' from underneath, sprayed on rustproofing (from Eastwood), and undercoating.
(I didn't have a MIG welder at the time.)
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Dang Sally, that was fun reading. Gave my eyes a workout.
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RPM, aka Bearing Bob wrote:
Dang Sally, that was fun reading. Gave my eyes a workout.
Look like he typed it on an old Underwood and paid no attention to the thumb return and bells.🤪
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(Glad I could entertain y'all..)
6s6
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I’ve had the car sitting around since 2004 and haven’t decided what I want to do with it except give it to one of the kids. Other than that I’ve wanted to fix it up. The AC system was disconnected at the heater and compressor. The drain at the bottom of the AC box was broken so the water from the AC and the heater core were leaking onto the floor for who knows how long. The rust covers all of the back seat foot well. The floor skin looks to be somewhere around .020. There is no other rust on the car except under the battery tray. I was going to let that go. The rust on the floor is flaky all over it. When I dig under the flakes it leaves a hole. For all these reasons I decided to change it. So I bought a 3/8 “diamond” spot weld cutter and It got through 1 and half spot welds. Not to impressed.
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I used the Blair cutters - there are a variety of arbors, pins, and drills. They are available through a number of tool suppliers and it looks like Eastwood might be selling them. I used 3/8 and 7/16 for most.
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GPatrick wrote:
I used the Blair cutters - there are a variety of arbors, pins, and drills. They are available through a number of tool suppliers and it looks like Eastwood might be selling them. I used 3/8 and 7/16 for most.
I used the Rotabroach kit that the Snap-on truck was selling in the mid-1980's. The Snap-on truck actually came to my house and I bought them out of the truck. When I wore some of them out, the truck came back and replaced them. THE GOOD OLD DAYS!
Last edited by KeithP (3/19/2024 8:21 PM)
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Grinding through the spot welded may produce better results than using a spot weld cutter. Often the depth of cut is hard to control and you end up cutting into the panel below. With grinding you can take just a little more off until you just break through.
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I used a spotweld drill from Eastwood many years ago with limited success. Some welds it worked great, some not so much (as TKO identified). I have to say that using a waver wheel on an air powered die grinder worked quite well to not only cut out pieces, but for trimming the cut-out portion. Recently I bought a small air powered reciprocating saw that also worked quite well.
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I’ve shears, scissors, die grinders bid and small, cutters, polishers and I thought everything in between, but I’ve never heard of a waver wheel. The Internet defines it as something for the lake.
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HudginJ3 wrote:
I’ve shears, scissors, die grinders bid and small, cutters, polishers and I thought everything in between, but I’ve never heard of a waver wheel. The Internet defines it as something for the lake.
Yeah, that one got me as well
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