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Hi Friends, it's been a while. working on a friend's 302 that is in a 68 coupe that he bought.
He and the worse off the previous owner know nothing about the engine, car and parts on it.
I notice his HEI dizzy had the vac advance facing piston 5 and decided to redo his timing for him so we are least know something.
I spent 4hrs checking everything X's 15 and in the end the best I could do was have the car "Run" but it has a vibration, like an imbalance.....it doesn't smoothen out with RPM and it backfires a lot! It violently dies if I advance 32nd of inch past a point.
I can't figure out how to time this HEI, any tips? Tried 3 methods to get at TDC end result is always the same, super challenging to get it to run, if it does it's not healthy)
ALSO, spark plugs, I can not find ANYWHERE if the Cleveland and Windsor use the same plug....I just want to know cause I have 2 sets from a buddies stock Cleveland that are essentially new.....are they the same?
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As far as timing goes it does not matter what way the distributor is facing (within clearance of the intake) as long as the orientation of the plug wires is correct.
Here's what I would do:
Bring #1 to TDC on the **compression** stroke, just put your finger in the plug hole and you'll feel the pressure as the piston comes up, look at the balancer and bring it over until it shows TDC or 0.
Now, here's where it gets tricky with an unknown motor. You could have a choice of firing orders, 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 or 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (late 302 and 351w). Look here for good illustrations and
What firing order are you using right now? Probably best to try whatever the other is from what you're using.
As far as plugs go it will depend on what heads you have, what plugs came out of it?
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Where the vac advance can points is meaningless. What matters is where #1 is when cylinder #1 is supposed to fire. If the vac advance can is in an area that makes adjusting the timing difficult because it runs into things you can spin the distributor body relative to the rotor position and not change the timing, but it will require pulling the distributor out of engagement with the cam to reindex the body relative to the rotor position, and on a Ford getting the oil pump driveshaft indexed correctly can also be fun. So, verify that TDC is actually TDC. Ford used 3-4 different balancer marks and timing pointer locations on the 302/5.0 and mismatched parts lead to incorrect reading of TDC. I always use a piston stop to make sure TDC is really TDC. Then drop the distributor in so it has +/- 10 degrees of timing. Start it up, let it warm up, and then set final timing.
You keep saying HEI, but HEI is a bowtie term. I mention this because the #1 cylinder location on a Ford and Chevy are different In the same vein, a Ford distributor advances timing by spinning the distributor counter clockwise, because the rotor spins counter clockwise. Not saying you don't know all this, but just trying to cover all bases.
Are you sure you have the firing order right? early 302s and 351s use a different firing order, but all 5.0 HOs use the 351 order, and Ford eventually changed all 302s/5.0s to that order. The firing order follows what cam is in the engine, not the year of the block, etc. Based on what you are describing it sounds like the firing order is wrong. I've had engines where TDC was 40-60 degrees off on the balancer that ran reasonably well. They had no power, but they stared and ran fine. I ran a 302 firing order on a 351 once though, and it ran rough as a cob.
Clevelands and Windsors use different spark plugs, sorry.
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Question: Was it running before you decided to "redo" his timing for him? If so, don't change the firing order. It sounds to me you got the distributor off a tooth if you pulled it to align the vac adv can.
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TKOPerformance wrote:
You keep saying HEI, but HEI is a bowtie term. I mention this because the #1 cylinder location on a Ford and Chevy are different In the same vein, a Ford distributor advances timing by spinning the distributor counter clockwise, because the rotor spins counter clockwise. Not saying you don't know all this, but just trying to cover all bases.
I was ASSuming it was one of those Ford setups with the HEI looking cap.
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Raymond_B wrote:
As far as timing goes it does not matter what way the distributor is facing (within clearance of the intake) as long as the orientation of the plug wires is correct.
Here's what I would do:
Bring #1 to TDC on the **compression** stroke, just put your finger in the plug hole and you'll feel the pressure as the piston comes up, look at the balancer and bring it over until it shows TDC or 0.
Now, here's where it gets tricky with an unknown motor. You could have a choice of firing orders, 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8 or 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8 (late 302 and 351w). Look here for good illustrations and
What firing order are you using right now? Probably best to try whatever the other is from what you're using.
As far as plugs go it will depend on what heads you have, what plugs came out of it?
This is important Info Thank you! I only knew about the 13726548 Firing Order, and I always understood it to be the early model Firing Order, but you're saying it's Late Model?
My current 68 302 is 1372.....and my previous 69 was 1372....both engines were overhauled and also out to that FO.......I guess the next question is, when did they switch over from what to which and if an engine is overhauled, is it up to choice which you do?
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I also want to thank everyone for taking the time to respond and I would like to clarify I'm well aware the canister direction means nothing. I only tackled this cause it was ridiculous to face piston 5 and it hindered setting the timing.
My biggest mistake was not taking strong note on how the timing was set as it was ----- to answer questions the car ran and drove just fine, lacking spunk but it was smooth and drivable.
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M1Mustang69 wrote:
I also want to thank everyone for taking the time to respond and I would like to clarify I'm well aware the canister direction means nothing. I only tackled this cause it was ridiculous to face piston 5 and it hindered setting the timing.
My biggest mistake was not taking strong note on how the timing was set as it was ----- to answer questions the car ran and drove just fine, lacking spunk but it was smooth and drivable.
No problem at all, your camshaft will dictate firing order. I *think* Ford changed the 302 firing order around 1982 when the HO motor came out, but the smart guys here will be able to validate that. Again though, that's just stock stuff.
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Sounds to me like you installed the dizzy a tooth off. I recently had to pull my dizzy when I was recurving it. When I put it back I was a tooth off and the symptoms were the same as you're describing regarding the backfire and poor engine running. Once I got it back in properly and timed, it ran very smoothly (and the vac can pointed forward).
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If it ran fine, but seemed to lack performance the timing may well have been fine, but the timing curve may have been super lazy (the way Ford loved to calibrate the distributors from the factory for some reason). Once you get base timing set you can look at the mechanical curve. I like to have all timing in by 3,000RPM, and would look for 32-42 degrees of total timing, depending on how high performance the engine is. The lower performance it is the more timing you typically need, because the heads are less efficient and require more spark lead to fully burn the air/fuel charge.
Under the breaker plate you can see the mechanical system. I would install the lightest springs possible from one of the common recurve kits available. Also look at which slot the arm is in. They are stamped with a number like "9" or "13". Double that number is the max mechanical advance possible, so 18 and 26 respectively for that previous example. You can put the arm in the other slot but you have to pull and disassemble the distributor a bit to do it. Once you know how much mechanical advance it can generate just set the base timing to get you to the total timing you want (i.e. 26 degrees mechanical and you want 38 total, set base timing to 12 degrees).
If you have to pull the distributor, mark its current location on the distributor body and the intake, then pull it up and mark again where it rotated to. This way, when you reinstall it start at the second mark and it should naturally fall back to where it was supposed to be (the first mark).
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Some items I’ll add to the previous posts.
Once TDC is known, I like to adjust the timing marks to 10 degrees BTDC. This way when indexing the distributor to #1 spark plug, even if I’m off a bit the engine will fire up.
When re-installing the distributor, aligning the oil pump drive is usually the tricky part. I turn the engine either by hand (on the crank bolt), or via the starter, while keeping slight down pressure on the distributor. The distributor usually will drop into place within a ¼ turn of the crankshaft.
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BobE wrote:
Some items I’ll add to the previous posts.
Once TDC is known, I like to adjust the timing marks to 10 degrees BTDC. This way when indexing the distributor to #1 spark plug, even if I’m off a bit the engine will fire up.
When re-installing the distributor, aligning the oil pump drive is usually the tricky part. I turn the engine either by hand (on the crank bolt), or via the starter, while keeping slight down pressure on the distributor. The distributor usually will drop into place within a ¼ turn of the crankshaft.
Certainly sounds a lot easier than a 5/16" deep socket on a long 1/4" extension through the distributor hole until you just happen to stumble on getting it right. Thanks for the tip!
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TKOPerformance wrote:
BobE wrote:
Some items I’ll add to the previous posts.
Once TDC is known, I like to adjust the timing marks to 10 degrees BTDC. This way when indexing the distributor to #1 spark plug, even if I’m off a bit the engine will fire up.
When re-installing the distributor, aligning the oil pump drive is usually the tricky part. I turn the engine either by hand (on the crank bolt), or via the starter, while keeping slight down pressure on the distributor. The distributor usually will drop into place within a ¼ turn of the crankshaft.Certainly sounds a lot easier than a 5/16" deep socket on a long 1/4" extension through the distributor hole until you just happen to stumble on getting it right. Thanks for the tip!
No problem, I fought trying to get the oil pump hex drive aligned 'correctly' until I tried this and was quite surprised when it dropped in so easily. Certainly made pulling/installing the distributor a lot less stressful experience.
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I thought it was only me that was having the difficulty with the oil pump driveshaft alignment when installing the distributor. On my 302, I can only rotate the crankshaft when lying underneath it reaching up. I don't have access from above. So I'm stuck with the long 1/4" extensions taped together used to tweak the position of the oil pump driveshaft. I wondered why they don't taper the top of that shaft some to make this easier.
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I want to take a moment to thank everyone for their insight and time to help.....I applied multiple strategies like 10deg BTDC and the crank-turning with dizzy down pressure to drop it in.
In the end the Winner was the fricken timing order.....my mistake for not checking more references online (and I defaulted to the 69 351W I had for more years than my 68 302).
the correct FO was 1542...
Silly mistake, got it fired up, running and driving after 2 tries.
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Rufus68 wrote:
I thought it was only me that was having the difficulty with the oil pump driveshaft alignment when installing the distributor. On my 302, I can only rotate the crankshaft when lying underneath it reaching up. I don't have access from above. So I'm stuck with the long 1/4" extensions taped together used to tweak the position of the oil pump driveshaft. I wondered why they don't taper the top of that shaft some to make this easier.
I stated in my post, I've also bumped the starter, but didn't mention how. I used a push-button switch on the starter solenoid (or a screwdriver) from the battery post on the solenoid to the "S" terminal.
The push-button method offers greater control.
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M1Mustang69 wrote:
I want to take a moment to thank everyone for their insight and time to help.....I applied multiple strategies like 10deg BTDC and the crank-turning with dizzy down pressure to drop it in.
In the end the Winner was the fricken timing order.....my mistake for not checking more references online (and I defaulted to the 69 351W I had for more years than my 68 302).
the correct FO was 1542...
Silly mistake, got it fired up, running and driving after 2 tries.
Glad you got it figured out. I did the opposite one time. We had an '86 Bronco where we swapped the 351M for a 351W and I couldn't find the firing order so I used the one cast into the intake of my '67's 289. I ran, but...well, you know.
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M1Mustang69 wrote:
I want to take a moment to thank everyone for their insight and time to help.....I applied multiple strategies like 10deg BTDC and the crank-turning with dizzy down pressure to drop it in.
In the end the Winner was the fricken timing order.....my mistake for not checking more references online (and I defaulted to the 69 351W I had for more years than my 68 302).
the correct FO was 1542...
Silly mistake, got it fired up, running and driving after 2 tries.
a couple plug wires wrong can cause some problems and running issue. Done that a few times myself.
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