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12/31/2024 7:40 AM  #26


Re: stumped - brakes

I can attest to the fact that these are needed for the disc/drum brakes.  Although the brakes worked without one installed, the pedal had a very different (better) feel with the RPV - less travel, much firmer, easier to modulate, better overall.  It's disappointing that the kit I bought didn't come with a master cylinder that had the RPV integrated, or a separate RPV, or even a note in the instructions stating that an external RPV was needed.


Founding Member of the Perpetually Bewildered Society
 

12/31/2024 5:20 PM  #27


Re: stumped - brakes

Through all the brake experience I have gathered through the years, I can guarantee the return springs have nothing to do with the function of an rpv.  The springs return the shoes back to static position, rpv or not.
In 74, Ford quit using an rpv in the maverick
Disc brake cars. Not sure about others.
The springs will overcome any residual pressure valve in the system and, when you hit the brakes, they are being applied from the static position.  They need to be properly adjusted so that static position does not require a long pedal stroke. I used to get customer inquiries as to why their new disc/drum installation required such a long pedal stroke. 99% of the time it was because the rear brakes were not adjusted tight enough. When people heard a dragging shoe, they though adjustment was done.  Since drum brakes float off center, the drag was just one shoe rubbing way before the brakes were floated to center.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/01/2025 8:39 AM  #28


Re: stumped - brakes

MS – I tend agree with you, I viewed that video with doubts; although I would expect that Wilwood would have the expertise in this area.  On drum brakes, the springs return the wheel cylinder to the fully retracted position, doesn’t seem like 10psi ‘hold’ would do a whole lot.  As you state, adjusting drum brakes properly should eliminate a long travel pedal.  And I do not remember there being residual valves on cars years ago with 4-wheel drum brakes … but I’ve been wrong before.


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

1/01/2025 8:54 AM  #29


Re: stumped - brakes

I totally agree the Wilwood engineers should know more than i do about brakes.
Think of it this way.
If the rpv was able to hold the shoes off of their stops while driving the car, that means there is enough slop in the system to adjust the shoes outward a little bit and take up that slack, and the wheel could still rotate without drag.  So, just adjust that slop out and you remove the extra pedal travel.
The main thing is to be sure drum diameter is in spec, shoes are not worn and self-adjusters are in good working condition.
I diagnosed a problem on a 32 Ford once where, after the car sat tor a while, the brakes went away. The master cylinder was under the floor, and the caliper pistons were higher than the master cylinder. They gravity bled back to the master cylinder when parked. Installation of two 2# valves cured the problem.
I have experimented with this. I have two valves on my 66 that made zero difference in brake function. They will get removed if I ever need to replace my master cylinder again. Ford quit using them on disc/drum cars in the 70’s.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/02/2025 6:17 AM  #30


Re: stumped - brakes

The only time I ever heard of a residual pressure valve on a 4 wheel drum brake vehicle was decades ago when they mounted the master cylinder below the floor.  My understanding was that this was done to prevent exactly the condition MS described on the '32 Ford he fixed. 

I've heard of RPVs being built into some master cylinders, but can't say whether or not that's just an urban legend or not.

Another thing worth noting is that self adjusters are side specific.  Typically I've seen them stamped with an R or an L, but you never know so its always a good idea to verify function by manually operating the arm and making sure the adjuster turns.  If reusing adjusters I will usually take them apart and put some grease or anti seize on the threads to ensure they don't get stuck over time.  Probably not as much a concern on cars, but on trucks and 4x4s used off road the brakes often get submerged in water or mud, so its become a habit.

 

1/02/2025 8:43 AM  #31


Re: stumped - brakes

Yes, I agree with rpv's for MC's mounted below the floor due to gavity issues. 
And maybe earlier MC's had them built into the MC, as TKO stated. 
I'm just glad to have installed 4-wheel disc's and not deal with drum brakes. 
 


65 Fastback, 351W, 5-speed, 4 wheel discs, 9" rear,  R&C Front End.
 

1/02/2025 9:03 AM  #32


Re: stumped - brakes

Not that it matters too much but F-150's ran a residual pressure valve well in to the 90's (until they dumped the drums I believe). Not sure how much later, anyway I agree with Steve in that the adjustment sounds off. I remember when doing mine I always lubed the adjusters and then made sure the correct adjuster is on the correct side. I would also run the adjuster out far enough where the drum would slide over the shoes, but had pretty good resistance because I hate spinning that adjuster through the slot. Also, and not 100% sure that this made a lot of difference, but I would apply the parking brake several times as well as backing up and then stopping. That always seemed to get them pretty even.

Sorry if I am repeating a lot of what has been said, but I think it is important to reinforce.

F-150 RPV for trivia  https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f10/260964d1381187273t-master-cylinder-question-image-3289741942.jpg

Last edited by Raymond_B (1/02/2025 9:03 AM)

 

1/02/2025 10:37 AM  #33


Re: stumped - brakes

What about original disc/drum brakes on early Mustangs?   The same port on the master cylinder fed both the discs and the drums.  So, no rpv was installed.  They worked.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/02/2025 12:33 PM  #34


Re: stumped - brakes

Soooo a residual valve in the rear DRUM BRAKES of 10 lbs will give me a firmer pedal ?
Interesting.....
Thx
6s6


Get busy Liv'in or get busy Die'n....Host of the 2020 Bash at the Beach/The only Bash that got cancelled  )8
 

1/02/2025 2:16 PM  #35


Re: stumped - brakes

Raymond_B wrote:

Not that it matters too much but F-150's ran a residual pressure valve well in to the 90's (until they dumped the drums I believe). Not sure how much later, anyway I agree with Steve in that the adjustment sounds off. I remember when doing mine I always lubed the adjusters and then made sure the correct adjuster is on the correct side. I would also run the adjuster out far enough where the drum would slide over the shoes, but had pretty good resistance because I hate spinning that adjuster through the slot. Also, and not 100% sure that this made a lot of difference, but I would apply the parking brake several times as well as backing up and then stopping. That always seemed to get them pretty even.

Sorry if I am repeating a lot of what has been said, but I think it is important to reinforce.

F-150 RPV for trivia  https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f10/260964d1381187273t-master-cylinder-question-image-3289741942.jpg

Some might not be aware that self/adjusters only function while braking in reverse.


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

1/03/2025 6:24 AM  #36


Re: stumped - brakes

Raymond_B wrote:

Not that it matters too much but F-150's ran a residual pressure valve well in to the 90's (until they dumped the drums I believe). Not sure how much later, anyway I agree with Steve in that the adjustment sounds off. I remember when doing mine I always lubed the adjusters and then made sure the correct adjuster is on the correct side. I would also run the adjuster out far enough where the drum would slide over the shoes, but had pretty good resistance because I hate spinning that adjuster through the slot. Also, and not 100% sure that this made a lot of difference, but I would apply the parking brake several times as well as backing up and then stopping. That always seemed to get them pretty even.

Sorry if I am repeating a lot of what has been said, but I think it is important to reinforce.

F-150 RPV for trivia  https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f10/260964d1381187273t-master-cylinder-question-image-3289741942.jpg

Is that what that valve is on the LH side of the frame on my buddy's Lightning?  We put a set of brake lines on it some decades back and I remember wonder WTF that was. 

You adjust drum brakes as I do.  I've found that works well enough to achieve proper pedal height and a couple of stops in reverse take care of any remaining adjustment in short order.  By adjusting them that way initially you basically force the shoes to be centered. 

 

1/03/2025 8:21 AM  #37


Re: stumped - brakes

TKOPerformance wrote:

Raymond_B wrote:

Not that it matters too much but F-150's ran a residual pressure valve well in to the 90's (until they dumped the drums I believe). Not sure how much later, anyway I agree with Steve in that the adjustment sounds off. I remember when doing mine I always lubed the adjusters and then made sure the correct adjuster is on the correct side. I would also run the adjuster out far enough where the drum would slide over the shoes, but had pretty good resistance because I hate spinning that adjuster through the slot. Also, and not 100% sure that this made a lot of difference, but I would apply the parking brake several times as well as backing up and then stopping. That always seemed to get them pretty even.

Sorry if I am repeating a lot of what has been said, but I think it is important to reinforce.

F-150 RPV for trivia  https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f10/260964d1381187273t-master-cylinder-question-image-3289741942.jpg

Is that what that valve is on the LH side of the frame on my buddy's Lightning?  We put a set of brake lines on it some decades back and I remember wonder WTF that was. 

You adjust drum brakes as I do.  I've found that works well enough to achieve proper pedal height and a couple of stops in reverse take care of any remaining adjustment in short order.  By adjusting them that way initially you basically force the shoes to be centered. 

The item that's frame mounted on the driver's side is the rear ABS module (RABS). The RPV is actually screwed right in to the MC and the rear brake line goes in to that.
 

 

1/03/2025 10:31 AM  #38


Re: stumped - brakes

MS wrote:

What about original disc/drum brakes on early Mustangs? The same port on the master cylinder fed both the discs and the drums.

Not true.  There was a unique master cylinder for the disc/drum cars that had 2 outlets on the forward side of the master cylinder.  One port (the lower one, IIRC) went to the disc brakes, the other (comes straight out from the front of the master cylinder) went to the rear drums

Last edited by John Ha (1/03/2025 10:41 AM)


Founding Member of the Perpetually Bewildered Society
     Thread Starter
 

1/03/2025 1:34 PM  #39


Re: stumped - brakes

John Ha wrote:

MS wrote:

What about original disc/drum brakes on early Mustangs? The same port on the master cylinder fed both the discs and the drums.

Not true.  There was a unique master cylinder for the disc/drum cars that had 2 outlets on the forward side of the master cylinder.  One port (the lower one, IIRC) went to the disc brakes, the other (comes straight out from the front of the master cylinder) went to the rear drums

Not my experience.  I bought mine with the handling package.  It came with disk/drum brakes.  It's master cylinder had only one outlet.  Not two.  I know because I had to replace it.  Only one outlet.
 


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

1/03/2025 2:10 PM  #40


Re: stumped - brakes

I mean we are comparing old tech, so maybe it worked, but not that great, who knows? I think Steve's point is that missing/not using the RPV would not result in the pedal going to the floor. After reading everything I think it's a case of the shoes not adjusting or improperly adjusted.

 

1/03/2025 2:43 PM  #41


Re: stumped - brakes

John Ha wrote:

MS wrote:

What about original disc/drum brakes on early Mustangs? The same port on the master cylinder fed both the discs and the drums.

Not true.  There was a unique master cylinder for the disc/drum cars that had 2 outlets on the forward side of the master cylinder.  One port (the lower one, IIRC) went to the disc brakes, the other (comes straight out from the front of the master cylinder) went to the rear drums

Not my experience.  I bought mine with the handling package.  It came with disk/drum brakes.  It's master cylinder had only one outlet.  Not two.  I know because I had to replace it.  Only one outlet.
 


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

1/03/2025 4:47 PM  #42


Re: stumped - brakes

lowercasesteve wrote:

Not my experience.  I bought mine with the handling package.  It came with disk/drum brakes.  It's master cylinder had only one outlet.  Not two.  I know because I had to replace it.  Only one outlet.
 

Ah, then you have an early 1965 model.  Those came with the single outlet master cylinder, which was phased out in favor of the two-outlet master cylinder in the 1966 model year disc brake cars.

Last edited by John Ha (1/03/2025 4:49 PM)


Founding Member of the Perpetually Bewildered Society
     Thread Starter
 

1/03/2025 8:51 PM  #43


Re: stumped - brakes

John Ha wrote:

lowercasesteve wrote:

Not my experience.  I bought mine with the handling package.  It came with disk/drum brakes.  It's master cylinder had only one outlet.  Not two.  I know because I had to replace it.  Only one outlet.
 

Ah, then you have an early 1965 model.  Those came with the single outlet master cylinder, which was phased out in favor of the two-outlet master cylinder in the 1966 model year disc brake cars.

That's strange.  I bought it new in June or July of 1966 in upstate NY.  If what you say is true, Ford must have scrounged in their parts bin to find it.  Unfortunately, I don't have a photo.  It was my daily driver in those days and was not anything more than a daily driver.
 


Original owner - 351w,T-5, 4whl disks, power R&P
 

1/03/2025 10:57 PM  #44


Re: stumped - brakes

Every 66 disc brake setup I have seen had only one 1/4” tube running from master cylinder to distribution block. Doesn’t mean I have seen them all, but seems to be the way they were built.

Don, what does your 66 GT have?


Money you enjoy wasting is NOT wasted money... unless your wife finds out.
 

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